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I was as pro COVID vaccine as anyone but this is the definition of gaslighting. You couldn't go to school or work without a vaccine. You couldn't enter an airpl

I was as pro COVID vaccine as anyone but this is the definition of gaslighting. You couldn't go to school or work without a vaccine. You couldn't enter an airplane or hospital. Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated.

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage". There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
- fdewrewrewf 4y ago
  >There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? >the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated. Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    >But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
    - fdewrewrewf 4y ago
      I don't understand your use of the word "triage". Unless I am mis-understanding, you are defining it as "we will triage unvaccinated Covid patients as "not needing care"". In which case - everything I've said still stands. Should we triage smokers with lung cancer as "not needing care"? You would also be conflating "triage a medical condition" with "make a moral judgement about deserving care". Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth). >I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system You should look a bit harder. https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-price-tag-eclipses-the-cost-of-any-other-cancer/ https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-... And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer. >Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated". Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live. First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%. Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2]. Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3]. Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%. Who's surprised? [1] https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc/ https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc... [2] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas..., "Weekly Admissions and Beds from 1 October 2021 up to 31 March 2022 (XLSX, 2.6MB)" [3] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 >get the goddamn vaccine. Yep, heard that one before. You realise you are taking part in a discussion on research into serious side effects of the Covid vaccines?
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Would you support the same attitude towards fat people? They disproportionately drain medical resources due to life choices they made.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    Am I a doctor? Do I support triage? Or am I just talking about why someone might take that position, given that they're the ones who have to clean up the consequences? And, seriously, fat people? Do you really think that "a lifetime of eating choices, shaped by gut health, physical education, literal physical location, upbringing, and genetics" is equivalent to "sitting still for a vaccine, just like all the other ones you've uncontroversially received all your life"? Perhaps I've missed an easily-accessible vaccine against fat that the obese refused to get? I don't think you do; I think you're choosing to present an untenable situation in order to score points. Just get the vaccine.
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      >> Just get the vaccine. These days that means getting boosters. We are not at the point we were last year in terms of risk vs benefit, particularly for young healthy people. https://youtu.be/iJ2W-1cKEtk?t=583 https://youtu.be/iJ2W-1cKEtk?t=583
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      I think you didn’t answer the question because it highlights the principle behind your demand — and you don’t like that. Histrionics from you aside, I’m entirely serious: Do you support the same for fat people? …and if not, why not? - - - - - You’re also ignoring that the vaccine is worse than the disease for the young and men under 40. I think that’s because you’re not taking a principled position — you’re hysterical and seizing onto magic charms to make you feel better.
      - belltaco 4y ago
        Is there a free and effective vaccine against obesity that obese people are refusing to take? Are obese people acutely filling up hospitals causing issues for people in road accidents and with heart attacks getting delayed care?
- landemva 4y ago
  In a thread about serious complications from taking the vaccine is this comment, "all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID." The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission. I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    >>"all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID." >The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission I said what you've quoted because it's literally true. Neither "sickness" nor "transmission" are binary. Getting vax'd doesn't prevent sickness -- but it prevents the very worst of it [0], and presumably can turn a moderate infection into a minor one. It doesn't prevent transmission, but it decreases viral load [1] and concomitantly seems to decrease infectivity. Frankly, since it seems like we're all going to get COVID again and again anyway, I'd rather decrease its effect on my future health. [0] https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vacc... https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022-07-18-study-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-prevent-hospitalizations https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022-07-18-study-covid-19-... [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01816-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01816-0
  - belltaco 4y ago
    >The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission The vaccine reduced sicked and transmission. Just like seatbelts don't prevent injury and death but reduce them. >I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work If you were paying any attention you'd realize that they have full approval since more than half a year. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/full-fda-approval-of-a-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-should-know https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
billythemaniam 4y ago
Just like every other vaccine... Nothing special about the COVID vaccine in this regard.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  …no? I’ve never had work, airplanes, or hospitals check for vaccines. Nor restaurants, entertainment venues, etc. There was nothing standard about how this was deployed — and pretending otherwise is gaslighting.
  - billythemaniam 4y ago
    Hospitals have always checked for vaccines in public health crises when relevant. That is part of the playbook. They have also required staff to be vaccinated for decades. Schools at all levels have required proof for decades. Those other businesses didn't need to check because most likely someone was already vaccinated or enough people were vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. COVID was the first virus and vaccine in decades that needed to be treated similarly to measles, etc. Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      I think it’s entirely appropriate to call this gaslighting: - you didn’t actually name any similar time - you admit that this was unusual by a number of the places I listed - the polices around COVID are unprecedented in history, eg refusal with mandates being a small fine rather than being exiled from society - you resorted to personal attacks, despite you being wrong
      - billythemaniam 4y ago
        Your bullet points just show that you think I made a bad argument. That is totally fine, but that isn't gaslighting. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

revolvingocelot 4y ago

>Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage". There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.

fdewrewrewf 4y ago
>There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? >the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated. Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
  - fdewrewrewf 4y ago
    I don't understand your use of the word "triage". Unless I am mis-understanding, you are defining it as "we will triage unvaccinated Covid patients as "not needing care"". In which case - everything I've said still stands. Should we triage smokers with lung cancer as "not needing care"? You would also be conflating "triage a medical condition" with "make a moral judgement about deserving care". Obviously there isn't a "bad choice" if the "right choice" has been forced on everyone (which is nearer the truth). >I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system You should look a bit harder. https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-price-tag-eclipses-the-cost-of-any-other-cancer/ https://news.cancerresearchuk.org/2012/11/07/lung-cancer-uk-... And that's just one of many largely self-inflicted but expensive conditions that people receive treatment for, and (at least in the UK) at huge amounts of expense to the taxpayer. >Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! Just to be clear, you said that "the healthcare system [was] full of those who didn't get vaccinated". Finding out the percentage of hospitalisations that were unvaccinated and Covid-related does require comparing a few data sources, so it's not a simple Google away. I'll focus on mechanical ventilation usage, as that was the easiest data to find, and use UK data as that's where I live. First - the easy number to find is the percentage of Covid patients in ICU who are unvaccinated. It varied during the main pandemic months between 50% and 75%[1]. Let's call it 62%. Next - how many patients is that? Picking the end of December, that's around 750[2]. Finally - how many mechanical ventilators are available in total? It varies, but 5000 is a good number[3]. Multiplying it all out, the percentage of ventilated beds that were occupied at the end of December 2021 by unvaccinated, Covid-positive people was 9%. Who's surprised? [1] https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc/ https://fullfact.org/health/unvaccinated-icu-channel4-icnarc... [2] https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas..., "Weekly Admissions and Beds from 1 October 2021 up to 31 March 2022 (XLSX, 2.6MB)" [3] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/1/e042945 >get the goddamn vaccine. Yep, heard that one before. You realise you are taking part in a discussion on research into serious side effects of the Covid vaccines?
zmgsabst 4y ago
Would you support the same attitude towards fat people? They disproportionately drain medical resources due to life choices they made.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  Am I a doctor? Do I support triage? Or am I just talking about why someone might take that position, given that they're the ones who have to clean up the consequences? And, seriously, fat people? Do you really think that "a lifetime of eating choices, shaped by gut health, physical education, literal physical location, upbringing, and genetics" is equivalent to "sitting still for a vaccine, just like all the other ones you've uncontroversially received all your life"? Perhaps I've missed an easily-accessible vaccine against fat that the obese refused to get? I don't think you do; I think you're choosing to present an untenable situation in order to score points. Just get the vaccine.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    >> Just get the vaccine. These days that means getting boosters. We are not at the point we were last year in terms of risk vs benefit, particularly for young healthy people. https://youtu.be/iJ2W-1cKEtk?t=583 https://youtu.be/iJ2W-1cKEtk?t=583
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I think you didn’t answer the question because it highlights the principle behind your demand — and you don’t like that. Histrionics from you aside, I’m entirely serious: Do you support the same for fat people? …and if not, why not? - - - - - You’re also ignoring that the vaccine is worse than the disease for the young and men under 40. I think that’s because you’re not taking a principled position — you’re hysterical and seizing onto magic charms to make you feel better.
    - belltaco 4y ago
      Is there a free and effective vaccine against obesity that obese people are refusing to take? Are obese people acutely filling up hospitals causing issues for people in road accidents and with heart attacks getting delayed care?
landemva 4y ago
In a thread about serious complications from taking the vaccine is this comment, "all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID." The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission. I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >>"all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID." >The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission I said what you've quoted because it's literally true. Neither "sickness" nor "transmission" are binary. Getting vax'd doesn't prevent sickness -- but it prevents the very worst of it [0], and presumably can turn a moderate infection into a minor one. It doesn't prevent transmission, but it decreases viral load [1] and concomitantly seems to decrease infectivity. Frankly, since it seems like we're all going to get COVID again and again anyway, I'd rather decrease its effect on my future health. [0] https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/03/covid-19-vacc... https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022-07-18-study-covid-19-vaccine-boosters-prevent-hospitalizations https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2022-07-18-study-covid-19-... [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01816-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01816-0
- belltaco 4y ago
  >The vaccine didn't prevent sickness nor transmission The vaccine reduced sicked and transmission. Just like seatbelts don't prevent injury and death but reduce them. >I would not take risks of this EUA medical treatment that doesn't work If you were paying any attention you'd realize that they have full approval since more than half a year. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/full-fda-approval-of-a-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-should-know https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

billythemaniam 4y ago

Just like every other vaccine... Nothing special about the COVID vaccine in this regard.

zmgsabst 4y ago
…no? I’ve never had work, airplanes, or hospitals check for vaccines. Nor restaurants, entertainment venues, etc. There was nothing standard about how this was deployed — and pretending otherwise is gaslighting.
- billythemaniam 4y ago
  Hospitals have always checked for vaccines in public health crises when relevant. That is part of the playbook. They have also required staff to be vaccinated for decades. Schools at all levels have required proof for decades. Those other businesses didn't need to check because most likely someone was already vaccinated or enough people were vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. COVID was the first virus and vaccine in decades that needed to be treated similarly to measles, etc. Please stop throwing the word gaslighting around. First, it has a specific meaning that isn't relevant here. Second, using that word in this context just shows ignorance on the current topic.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    I think it’s entirely appropriate to call this gaslighting: - you didn’t actually name any similar time - you admit that this was unusual by a number of the places I listed - the polices around COVID are unprecedented in history, eg refusal with mandates being a small fine rather than being exiled from society - you resorted to personal attacks, despite you being wrong
    - billythemaniam 4y ago
      Your bullet points just show that you think I made a bad argument. That is totally fine, but that isn't gaslighting. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride