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Yet they (Government, CDC and media) downplayed it blatantly. They certainly made people believe forcing it to young people (<40), especially teenagers and kids

Yet they (Government, CDC and media) downplayed it blatantly. They certainly made people believe forcing it to young people (<40), especially teenagers and kids was ok. Risks were higher than benefit and it was obvious from the data.

Bud 4y ago
- aaa_aaa 4y ago
  Universities or government institutions (including Army) did not allow working or studying without a vaccine. This is forcing. Also numbers are out there. It is laughable people comes with "alternative was dying" argument for young people.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Joining the army and complaining you’re being forced to do something seems… odd.
    - jonnycomputer 4y ago
      Fair, re military. But at my government job as a programmer at a university I was "forced" to vaccinate as well (unless I wanted to change jobs). I didn't mind, personally. But the descriptor of "forced" is pretty accurate. And not just jobs. Heck, I went to a concert and had to prove vaccination status. I think that requiring vaccination was justified at the height of the pandemic. It is unfortunate that the vaccines were not more neutralizing/preventing. I've had three doses and got the virus twice. I ended up being okay; my unvaccinated brother-in-law very much not okay. Like most people do, I have relatives who either died or were severely disabled by covid.
      - oceanplexian 4y ago
        Concerts? People were arrested by the police in NYC because they dared to walk into an Applebees and order food without showing a smartphone QR code that demonstrated they had multiple vaccinations for a disease that is readily spread by vaccinated people. It wasn’t based on science and people trying to use science as a shield for their actions should have been held accountable.
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        No, they were arrested for trespassing when they refused to leave. The same happens if you refuse to wear a shirt to Applebees and won't take "no" for an answer.
    - spamuel 4y ago
      You're allowed to complain in the military. There are extensive internal bureaucracies just to accommodate complaints. EO, SHARP/SAPR, IG, command climate surveys, congressional inquiries, open door policies (mandatory), sensing sessions, requesting mast... there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        > there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military. Sure, and sometimes that due process ends at "do it". That's been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades, and hasn't historically been much of an issue for folks.
        core-utility 4y ago
        The military has had an exemption process for vaccines since long before COVID.
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        Yes, and if you were fine with the ~20 or so you get at basic, but suddenly decided you don't like vaccines with COVID, you're not getting one. https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/us-military-religious-exemptions-covid-vaccine/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/us-military-religiou... > The US military has approved religious exemptions to its Covid-19 vaccine mandate for 15 service members out of approximately 16,000 requests, according to the latest data from the services.
        core-utility 4y ago
        That wasn't the comment though. The comment was "That's [do it] been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades" I'm saying that there has been an exemption process for vaccinations.
    - Rury 4y ago
      Why is that? If you were forced to join against your will, as in a draft, or in some nations where it's required, doesn't seem that odd to complain about it.
- bananapear 4y ago
  What would you consider to be “forcing”? Is it limited to physical violence?
- Mdndkdmd 4y ago
  I was as pro COVID vaccine as anyone but this is the definition of gaslighting. You couldn't go to school or work without a vaccine. You couldn't enter an airplane or hospital. Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    >Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage". There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
    - fdewrewrewf 4y ago
      >There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? >the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated. Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
      - revolvingocelot 4y ago
        >But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  I am solidly not an anti-vaxer (I have them in my family and engaging with them is a distressing experience), but please cut out this "trust the science" angle. The risk of death from covid itself varies a lot and varied a lot particularly depending on how overwhelmed hospitals were. Covid is not ebola or smallpox, the risk evaluation is much more subtle. It's more about weighing aggregated low-probability side effects and unknown long-term health effects against overwhelming hospitals, damage caused by long Covid, and continued stress for society in general under quarantines and lockdowns. Whether the right decisions were made will only be clear in hindsight and after a lot of study. That or we all turn into zombies.
  - jonnycomputer 4y ago
    Thank you. We all need a little epistemic humility, and a little compassion for how others made decisions. That includes public officials who had to make risky decisions with poor information in a rapidly changing fact-environment. When it became clear to me that: (1) the virus would never be boxed in [we missed that boat] (2) the vaccines mostly just prevented serious disease, but only marginally prevented its spread [I've had 3 doses, and gotten the virus twice (3) the newest variants appeared to be less dangerous I tended toward vaccination being personal choice (like with flu) rather than a mandate, something we'll just have to live with. Meanwhile there are global outbreaks of polio. That's what pisses me off (having a relative who suffered the consequences of that disease long long after childhood).
    - watwut 4y ago
      Tho, the very same groups that should have more "compassion for how they make decisions" in this thread shown pretty much zero compassion to anyone. It is also group that likes to frame compassion as weakness or studpidity.
      - mw888 4y ago
        This reply come off clearly as divisive, but it says a lot how easy this is to interpersonal from le either side.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Any reasonable person would consider being told "take the vaccine or be fired/expelled" as being forced to take it, and that absolutely happened.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    No, a forced medical intervention would involve holding someone down and forcibly injecting a substance, forcing them to take a pill or submit to an operation. This is much more correctly characterized as coercion.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      You are inventing a semantic distinction that does not exist in common usage.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - osigurdson 4y ago
        I suppose that is possible though I think using the same term to describe very different things begs for the creation of a new term. There appear to be concepts in medicine that touch upon this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_coercion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_coercion

Bud 4y ago

aaa_aaa 4y ago
Universities or government institutions (including Army) did not allow working or studying without a vaccine. This is forcing. Also numbers are out there. It is laughable people comes with "alternative was dying" argument for young people.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Joining the army and complaining you’re being forced to do something seems… odd.
  - jonnycomputer 4y ago
    Fair, re military. But at my government job as a programmer at a university I was "forced" to vaccinate as well (unless I wanted to change jobs). I didn't mind, personally. But the descriptor of "forced" is pretty accurate. And not just jobs. Heck, I went to a concert and had to prove vaccination status. I think that requiring vaccination was justified at the height of the pandemic. It is unfortunate that the vaccines were not more neutralizing/preventing. I've had three doses and got the virus twice. I ended up being okay; my unvaccinated brother-in-law very much not okay. Like most people do, I have relatives who either died or were severely disabled by covid.
    - oceanplexian 4y ago
      Concerts? People were arrested by the police in NYC because they dared to walk into an Applebees and order food without showing a smartphone QR code that demonstrated they had multiple vaccinations for a disease that is readily spread by vaccinated people. It wasn’t based on science and people trying to use science as a shield for their actions should have been held accountable.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        No, they were arrested for trespassing when they refused to leave. The same happens if you refuse to wear a shirt to Applebees and won't take "no" for an answer.
  - spamuel 4y ago
    You're allowed to complain in the military. There are extensive internal bureaucracies just to accommodate complaints. EO, SHARP/SAPR, IG, command climate surveys, congressional inquiries, open door policies (mandatory), sensing sessions, requesting mast... there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > there is quite a lot of mechanism for complaint and due process in the military. Sure, and sometimes that due process ends at "do it". That's been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades, and hasn't historically been much of an issue for folks.
      - core-utility 4y ago
        The military has had an exemption process for vaccines since long before COVID.
        ceejayoz 4y ago
        Yes, and if you were fine with the ~20 or so you get at basic, but suddenly decided you don't like vaccines with COVID, you're not getting one. https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/us-military-religious-exemptions-covid-vaccine/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/us-military-religiou... > The US military has approved religious exemptions to its Covid-19 vaccine mandate for 15 service members out of approximately 16,000 requests, according to the latest data from the services.
        core-utility 4y ago
        That wasn't the comment though. The comment was "That's [do it] been the case for vaccinations for quite a few decades" I'm saying that there has been an exemption process for vaccinations.
  - Rury 4y ago
    Why is that? If you were forced to join against your will, as in a draft, or in some nations where it's required, doesn't seem that odd to complain about it.
bananapear 4y ago
What would you consider to be “forcing”? Is it limited to physical violence?
Mdndkdmd 4y ago
I was as pro COVID vaccine as anyone but this is the definition of gaslighting. You couldn't go to school or work without a vaccine. You couldn't enter an airplane or hospital. Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >Doctors were even talking about not treating the unvaccinated And this is the definition of a lie of omission: the reason beleaguered ER docs might have considered this, even privately, probably had something to do with the fact that the deathly-ill unvaccinated took up all the beds, dying horribly on ventilators over a long period, cared for by bunny-suited staff who were beginning to tire. I believe the word is "triage". There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes when they got the 'VID. Put more straightforwardly, there was a feeling that, if not for those who didn't get vaccinated, the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated.
  - fdewrewrewf 4y ago
    >There was a feeling that this was unfair to all those who got the vaccine and thereby had much better outcomes But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? >the healthcare system wouldn't be full of those who didn't get vaccinated. Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period?
    - revolvingocelot 4y ago
      >But that's how healthcare works. How many other conditions do healthcare professionals have to treat, that are the result of people who made bad choices? What, you mean triage? "Bad choices"?! Just upthread you people are going on about how the vaccine has been forced on everybody! Which is it?! >Am I allowed to get salty about the number of lung cancer patients dying slowly and draining healthcare resources? I'm sorry, I must have missed the huge numbers of lung cancer patients clogging up the healthcare system, and the ease with which the worst consequences of lung cancer are ameliorated with a newly-developed vaccine that they refused to get. I never saw all those cancer patients before COVID started; I presume COVID drove them away from the healthcare system? Or maybe you're just making up nonsense. Hmm! >Full? What % of hospitalisations were unvaccinated and Covid-related, during a given time period? Why don't you go find out? I think the answer will surprise you! The reason you guys come up with such insane apples-to-snozzberries counterfactual comparison is that there isn't really a modern comparison to the public health failure to get everyone to get the goddamn vaccine.
nerdponx 4y ago
I am solidly not an anti-vaxer (I have them in my family and engaging with them is a distressing experience), but please cut out this "trust the science" angle. The risk of death from covid itself varies a lot and varied a lot particularly depending on how overwhelmed hospitals were. Covid is not ebola or smallpox, the risk evaluation is much more subtle. It's more about weighing aggregated low-probability side effects and unknown long-term health effects against overwhelming hospitals, damage caused by long Covid, and continued stress for society in general under quarantines and lockdowns. Whether the right decisions were made will only be clear in hindsight and after a lot of study. That or we all turn into zombies.
- jonnycomputer 4y ago
  Thank you. We all need a little epistemic humility, and a little compassion for how others made decisions. That includes public officials who had to make risky decisions with poor information in a rapidly changing fact-environment. When it became clear to me that: (1) the virus would never be boxed in [we missed that boat] (2) the vaccines mostly just prevented serious disease, but only marginally prevented its spread [I've had 3 doses, and gotten the virus twice (3) the newest variants appeared to be less dangerous I tended toward vaccination being personal choice (like with flu) rather than a mandate, something we'll just have to live with. Meanwhile there are global outbreaks of polio. That's what pisses me off (having a relative who suffered the consequences of that disease long long after childhood).
  - watwut 4y ago
    Tho, the very same groups that should have more "compassion for how they make decisions" in this thread shown pretty much zero compassion to anyone. It is also group that likes to frame compassion as weakness or studpidity.
    - mw888 4y ago
      This reply come off clearly as divisive, but it says a lot how easy this is to interpersonal from le either side.
josephcsible 4y ago
Any reasonable person would consider being told "take the vaccine or be fired/expelled" as being forced to take it, and that absolutely happened.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  No, a forced medical intervention would involve holding someone down and forcibly injecting a substance, forcing them to take a pill or submit to an operation. This is much more correctly characterized as coercion.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    You are inventing a semantic distinction that does not exist in common usage.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      I suppose that is possible though I think using the same term to describe very different things begs for the creation of a new term. There appear to be concepts in medicine that touch upon this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_coercion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_coercion