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Kevin has been hammering on them for many days now, and for good reason. Everyone has a different line in the sand. For me, a platform designed to promote hate

Kevin has been hammering on them for many days now, and for good reason. Everyone has a different line in the sand. For me, a platform designed to promote hate speech crosses that line.

nemo44x 4y ago
What is hate speech? Was Charlie Hebdo hate speech? Rushdie? A lot of people certainly think so. I see hate speech across nearly every internet platform including this one. There’s no shortage of hate speech against wealthy people or white men, etc. Is that allowed?
- arcatech 4y ago
  The person you’re responding to said “designed to promote hate speech”. Your examples don’t sound like that.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    What does that mean? That the forum operator doesn’t have moderation facilities that suits your tastes in what is and is not hate speech? A forum dedicated to the principal and culture of free speech is designed to promote hate speech?
    - arcatech 4y ago
      Hate speech is clearly defined in various laws against the concept. So it’s not really up to taste. Most popular services attempt to remove hate speech, but doesn’t look like KF does. Btw, a forum dedicated to the principle and culture of free speech would absolutely (by definition) be promoting/hosting hate speech.
      - concordDance 4y ago
        Most laws on hate speech don't use the term hate speech. What is your personal understanding of the term?
        arcatech 4y ago
        Does it matter? That's up to the people hosting the content right?
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        I'm not sure I understand your last sentence? If I were running a forum dedicated to the principle/culture of "free speech" I would think it's especially important to avoid promoting hate speech, or you run the risk that free speech and hate speech become seen as synonymous, and the wider public deciding that free speech isn't a worthy ideal after all.
        arcatech 4y ago
        I ended up conflating hosting and promoting which wasn't clear enough. You would be definitely be hosting hate speech, which is essentially promoting it (by using the internet to make that speech more accessible to others than it would be otherwise). The alternative is to accept that moderation is NECESSARY for online communities (or else spam and hate speech will take up a huge part of the content and suddenly you'll realize you're essentially promoting this content afterall) and moderation will always look like the opposite of "free speech".
- fullstop 4y ago
  I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    There are different degrees, sure. And this place has moderation. But what is the line? Be precise and avoid arbitrary definitions. There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people?
    - fullstop 4y ago
      That is still not the primary purpose of HN. Those comments should be flagged, of course, but they in no way align with the specific purpose of HN. Kiwifarms was founded to troll and harass a specific webcomic author. From there it evolved to target and harass specific people or communities. Surely you see the difference here.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - klyrs 4y ago
      > There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people? Are they targeting specific rich people in a dedicated and persistent fashion to the point that said rich persons kill themselves? No, that's not happening. I've seen posts of the type you've described. They're almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned. They're much less frequent than any one of anti-black, anti-gay, anti-jew, or anti-trans comments... which are almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned as well. This site does not remotely compare to KF.
    - pornel 4y ago
      You're falling for the heap paradox: If you remove a grain of sand from a heap, tell precisely at which grain of sand it stops being a heap. You can't? Therefore it's impossible to tell if something is a heap of sand! QED
djbebs 4y ago
Great, my line is people like you. Please disconnect from the internet. See the problem?
- philosopher1234 4y ago
  This is nimby logic. It’s indirect. There is clear damage caused by kiwi farms. I don’t care if we can come up with a philosophically coherent rule that captures kiwi farms and not other websites, it is still good that they are banned.
- fullstop 4y ago
  I am not asking for any of these people, specifically, to be removed from the internet. I am saying that I support cloudflare banning hosts which specifically target, harass, and doxx specific individuals or communities. I'm not supportive of banning Joshua Moon from the internet. Do you agree that there is a difference here?
  - zo1 4y ago
    This move and people's response to it is not about lines and principles. It's pretty much a slippery slope and we all know it; some cheer it on because this time their line was crossed, and others see it for what it's signaling. The overall erosion of discourse on non-accepted ideas and topics that are on the scale of mean/offensive/hateful. Yeah none of us here are happy about this site existing or innocent people being targeted, of course. But the next one will be slightly less extreme as kiwi farms and we'll say the same things.
    - fullstop 4y ago
      Would you be okay with a website which targeted you, specifically, tracked down your home, your employer, your family? One which encouraged others to do the same, filled your inbox with hateful messages? One which hid behind Cloudflare in order to hide their identity while simultaneously exposing yours? This is how KF started and continued to operate. You have a line. I have a line. What is happening here is that we're trying to define a common line which works for society, and it is going to "slip" over time as views change. In the past, that line would have included books which even mentioned homosexual behavior. Today that is more tolerated and accepted, which is good in my opinion because gay people certainly exist. I guess what I'm saying is that the line is going to have to slip a bit, and in more than one direction.
dmatech 4y ago
Sadly, I've had to block him and all the other people on this self-righteous authoritarian crusade and don't think I'll ever interact with them again. Most of the security community (and larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle.
- worried4future 4y ago
  > larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle I agree and I'm very worried for it.

Kevin has been hammering on them for many days now, and for good reason. Everyone has a different line in the sand. For me, a platform designed to promote hate speech crosses that line.

nemo44x 4y ago

What is hate speech? Was Charlie Hebdo hate speech? Rushdie? A lot of people certainly think so. I see hate speech across nearly every internet platform including this one. There’s no shortage of hate speech against wealthy people or white men, etc. Is that allowed?

arcatech 4y ago
The person you’re responding to said “designed to promote hate speech”. Your examples don’t sound like that.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  What does that mean? That the forum operator doesn’t have moderation facilities that suits your tastes in what is and is not hate speech? A forum dedicated to the principal and culture of free speech is designed to promote hate speech?
  - arcatech 4y ago
    Hate speech is clearly defined in various laws against the concept. So it’s not really up to taste. Most popular services attempt to remove hate speech, but doesn’t look like KF does. Btw, a forum dedicated to the principle and culture of free speech would absolutely (by definition) be promoting/hosting hate speech.
    - concordDance 4y ago
      Most laws on hate speech don't use the term hate speech. What is your personal understanding of the term?
      - arcatech 4y ago
        Does it matter? That's up to the people hosting the content right?
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      I'm not sure I understand your last sentence? If I were running a forum dedicated to the principle/culture of "free speech" I would think it's especially important to avoid promoting hate speech, or you run the risk that free speech and hate speech become seen as synonymous, and the wider public deciding that free speech isn't a worthy ideal after all.
      - arcatech 4y ago
        I ended up conflating hosting and promoting which wasn't clear enough. You would be definitely be hosting hate speech, which is essentially promoting it (by using the internet to make that speech more accessible to others than it would be otherwise). The alternative is to accept that moderation is NECESSARY for online communities (or else spam and hate speech will take up a huge part of the content and suddenly you'll realize you're essentially promoting this content afterall) and moderation will always look like the opposite of "free speech".
fullstop 4y ago
I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  There are different degrees, sure. And this place has moderation. But what is the line? Be precise and avoid arbitrary definitions. There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people?
  - fullstop 4y ago
    That is still not the primary purpose of HN. Those comments should be flagged, of course, but they in no way align with the specific purpose of HN. Kiwifarms was founded to troll and harass a specific webcomic author. From there it evolved to target and harass specific people or communities. Surely you see the difference here.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - klyrs 4y ago
    > There are threads here where people call for wealthy peoples heads. Did that cross a line? Could we say it about other people? Are they targeting specific rich people in a dedicated and persistent fashion to the point that said rich persons kill themselves? No, that's not happening. I've seen posts of the type you've described. They're almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned. They're much less frequent than any one of anti-black, anti-gay, anti-jew, or anti-trans comments... which are almost always dead/banned/shadowbanned as well. This site does not remotely compare to KF.
  - pornel 4y ago
    You're falling for the heap paradox: If you remove a grain of sand from a heap, tell precisely at which grain of sand it stops being a heap. You can't? Therefore it's impossible to tell if something is a heap of sand! QED

djbebs 4y ago

Great, my line is people like you. Please disconnect from the internet. See the problem?

philosopher1234 4y ago
This is nimby logic. It’s indirect. There is clear damage caused by kiwi farms. I don’t care if we can come up with a philosophically coherent rule that captures kiwi farms and not other websites, it is still good that they are banned.
fullstop 4y ago
I am not asking for any of these people, specifically, to be removed from the internet. I am saying that I support cloudflare banning hosts which specifically target, harass, and doxx specific individuals or communities. I'm not supportive of banning Joshua Moon from the internet. Do you agree that there is a difference here?
- zo1 4y ago
  This move and people's response to it is not about lines and principles. It's pretty much a slippery slope and we all know it; some cheer it on because this time their line was crossed, and others see it for what it's signaling. The overall erosion of discourse on non-accepted ideas and topics that are on the scale of mean/offensive/hateful. Yeah none of us here are happy about this site existing or innocent people being targeted, of course. But the next one will be slightly less extreme as kiwi farms and we'll say the same things.
  - fullstop 4y ago
    Would you be okay with a website which targeted you, specifically, tracked down your home, your employer, your family? One which encouraged others to do the same, filled your inbox with hateful messages? One which hid behind Cloudflare in order to hide their identity while simultaneously exposing yours? This is how KF started and continued to operate. You have a line. I have a line. What is happening here is that we're trying to define a common line which works for society, and it is going to "slip" over time as views change. In the past, that line would have included books which even mentioned homosexual behavior. Today that is more tolerated and accepted, which is good in my opinion because gay people certainly exist. I guess what I'm saying is that the line is going to have to slip a bit, and in more than one direction.

dmatech 4y ago

Sadly, I've had to block him and all the other people on this self-righteous authoritarian crusade and don't think I'll ever interact with them again. Most of the security community (and larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle.

worried4future 4y ago
> larger technology community) used to care a lot about free speech, but they've completely abandoned that principle I agree and I'm very worried for it.