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Hey thanks for taking the time to write this out. I wrote that post, and I use ProtonMail and have basically nothing but good experiences with them so far. I d

Hey thanks for taking the time to write this out. I wrote that post, and I use ProtonMail and have basically nothing but good experiences with them so far. I don't consider them "Big Email" just by literal meaning (they're very small) > The worry I have with something like Gmail or Outlook is that they can just take away your access to your inbox without reason or recourse, but it’s never actually happened to anyone I know. It happened with ProtonMail though - I set up an account for a family member, updated some of their online registrations to point to it, then a couple of days later it was locked out permanently. > > Password not forgotten, No way to have the account unlocked, no way to find out why it was locked, no way to have the account deleted, no way to get access to repoint the accounts using that address because now ProtonMail owned those other website accounts (not your email not your account). > > Password not forgotten, No way to have the account unlocked, no way to find out why it was locked, no way to have the account deleted, no way to get access to repoint the accounts using that address because now ProtonMail owned those other website accounts (not your email not your account). This is pretty terrible, but I'm coming at it from a oligopoly-break-up angle, and hadn't heard any such stories about ProtonMail. I'll try to update the post to serve as a better example, but I hesitate to do so without at least suggesting something (other than self hosting, obviously) that is a similarly easier option. What do you recommend instead? Fastmail?

jorvi 4y ago
> What do you recommend instead? Fastmail? FastMail and Mailbox spring to mind as the premiere ‘alternate’ e-mail hosts. I’ve heard decent things about Tutanota but have never used them so can’t speak to it.
- hardwaresofton 4y ago
  Tutanota I did hear something negative about -- they're beholden to the German government (not to necessarily say that others aren't -- ultimately nation-states tend to get their way), but I'm willing to include it if the community generally trusts it/is OK with the tradeoff.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- dividedbyzero 4y ago
  Fastmail is based in Australia, which IIRC has a pretty dismal privacy situation, with laws that mandate they have to be able to decrypt user data and provide full access to user accounts when asked, plus zero standing for non-citizens. Might not be an issue for most since the Five Eyes get it all anyway etc. etc., but it was a showstopper for me. Last time I looked Mailbox.org seemed to be the best EU-domestic provider.
  - hardwaresofton 4y ago
    Oh shit, Fastmail is based in Australia? I don't know how this escaped me/how I'd never heard of this. Yeah, Australia's policies regarding the internet are fully foobar'd. Removing them from the listing. Nothing against the people of course but it's off my radar as even a place to visit for this reason (not that they need my tourism).
highwaylights 4y ago
I don’t know that I could recommend any alternative at all. I’ve no experience of FastMail, but this same thing could happen just as easily with any provider. You’re basically left to rely on the opaque internal policies of the email provider to prevent your online identity being revoked, which is one of the many reasons why so many people would rather self-host in the first place. Sorry I can’t help you out with my two cents here. I’ve never heard of such things happening with FastMail, but then I hadn’t heard about it happening with ProtonMail either until it did.
- hardwaresofton 4y ago
  Well thanks for offering your experience at least -- I've updated the post to at least list some of the alternatives. Self-hosting is the end-goal but it looks like the in-between is still murky as well. Maybe what it really takes is people springing up to fill the gaps of a closer-to-self-host solution (so you have full control) w/ deliverability auto-solved (automatic purchase of some external relay or something). Like a service that purchases a VPS in your name, sets it up, then essentially disconnects (or offers to manage the service for a fee). Of course there's stuff out there like Cloudron etc so maybe that's part of the way forward as well -- but I wonder if Cloudron could ever really reach a completely non-technical user.
colordrops 4y ago
There's nothing wrong with Protonmail if you use your own domain name. You can move your email to another service if you get shut out. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it in this thread, especially considering another recent post on the front page of HN discussing a very similar topic.
- hardwaresofton 4y ago
  Ah yes I didn't even think to point that out -- that's what I do (I used to do my domain + my email server, now just my domain + protonmail). It's not obvious so I'll add that too.
theshrike79 4y ago
I switched to Fastmail ... 5 years ago? I've had zero issues. I pay them for a service, they provide said service. I think there have been a handful of outages, but I only noticed them afterwards from the HN front page :D The Masked Email system alone they added a while ago has been a life-saver, I sign up to all mailing lists and weird online shops using it.

jorvi 4y ago

> What do you recommend instead? Fastmail? FastMail and Mailbox spring to mind as the premiere ‘alternate’ e-mail hosts. I’ve heard decent things about Tutanota but have never used them so can’t speak to it.

hardwaresofton 4y ago
Tutanota I did hear something negative about -- they're beholden to the German government (not to necessarily say that others aren't -- ultimately nation-states tend to get their way), but I'm willing to include it if the community generally trusts it/is OK with the tradeoff.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dividedbyzero 4y ago
Fastmail is based in Australia, which IIRC has a pretty dismal privacy situation, with laws that mandate they have to be able to decrypt user data and provide full access to user accounts when asked, plus zero standing for non-citizens. Might not be an issue for most since the Five Eyes get it all anyway etc. etc., but it was a showstopper for me. Last time I looked Mailbox.org seemed to be the best EU-domestic provider.
- hardwaresofton 4y ago
  Oh shit, Fastmail is based in Australia? I don't know how this escaped me/how I'd never heard of this. Yeah, Australia's policies regarding the internet are fully foobar'd. Removing them from the listing. Nothing against the people of course but it's off my radar as even a place to visit for this reason (not that they need my tourism).

highwaylights 4y ago

I don’t know that I could recommend any alternative at all. I’ve no experience of FastMail, but this same thing could happen just as easily with any provider. You’re basically left to rely on the opaque internal policies of the email provider to prevent your online identity being revoked, which is one of the many reasons why so many people would rather self-host in the first place. Sorry I can’t help you out with my two cents here. I’ve never heard of such things happening with FastMail, but then I hadn’t heard about it happening with ProtonMail either until it did.

hardwaresofton 4y ago
Well thanks for offering your experience at least -- I've updated the post to at least list some of the alternatives. Self-hosting is the end-goal but it looks like the in-between is still murky as well. Maybe what it really takes is people springing up to fill the gaps of a closer-to-self-host solution (so you have full control) w/ deliverability auto-solved (automatic purchase of some external relay or something). Like a service that purchases a VPS in your name, sets it up, then essentially disconnects (or offers to manage the service for a fee). Of course there's stuff out there like Cloudron etc so maybe that's part of the way forward as well -- but I wonder if Cloudron could ever really reach a completely non-technical user.

colordrops 4y ago

There's nothing wrong with Protonmail if you use your own domain name. You can move your email to another service if you get shut out. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it in this thread, especially considering another recent post on the front page of HN discussing a very similar topic.

hardwaresofton 4y ago
Ah yes I didn't even think to point that out -- that's what I do (I used to do my domain + my email server, now just my domain + protonmail). It's not obvious so I'll add that too.

theshrike79 4y ago

I switched to Fastmail ... 5 years ago? I've had zero issues. I pay them for a service, they provide said service. I think there have been a handful of outages, but I only noticed them afterwards from the HN front page :D The Masked Email system alone they added a while ago has been a life-saver, I sign up to all mailing lists and weird online shops using it.