5 ms·

If that were true companies would never hire in the Bay Area, or even the United States. There’s always a cheaper alternative. The question is, once the compan

If that were true companies would never hire in the Bay Area, or even the United States. There’s always a cheaper alternative. The question is, once the company has decided it wants you, what’s that going to take? Making national median offers to Bay Area candidates essentially swears off of ever hiring them. That could be a choice, but for now it remains a bench of talent and experience that companies want to draw from, even if not exclusively. Making Bay Area offers to rural candidates is giving them 4-5x their next best option, which is characteristic of either a) the devil, or b) rich people making expressive displays rather than business transactions. It’s like everything else, your leverage is your next best alternative, and until work goes fully remote location is a factor in that. EDIT: I will add that if you think calibrating an offer based on the worker’s alternatives is crass, think for a second about what exactly your skills, education, and experience are for. Those work through the same mechanism. If that mechanism is wrong, you should be happy to work for the national median wage across all industries and all education levels. Even a mediocre SWE salary is way too high.

derefr 4y ago
Bay Area companies hire in the Bay Area, for the same reason companies are founded in the Bay Area to begin with: because most of the VCs in the US live in the Bay Area. And Bay Area investors care a lot about having a package of colocated staff "human assets" that put an acquihire-based floor on the company's acquisition price. Companies that don't operate from the Bay Area, almost never hire Bay Area remote workers; and companies that are headquartered outside of the US, almost never hire US remote workers. Precisely because they cost too much, for a company that gets no advantage from doing so. (Source: we are a Canadian company; we hire from everywhere but the US.)
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  > Source: we are a Canadian company, and hire from everywhere but the US. I don't follow. This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. If you work for a Canadian company that doesn't hire in the US then you're comically underpaid. Wages are converging very fast. Many companies are paying parity and frankly folks are selling themselves short if they don't fight for parity. (If you're not talking about software development, then ignore me)
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. Probably only after they get to a certain scale and cannot find more talent in Canada? When did Shopify start hiring in the US - right from the beginning?
    - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
      No? If I started a company in Canada tomorrow, why would I reduce my talent pool and not look at the US? Most startups are eschewing offices in an obvious move for cash-strapped businesses. If you're hiring remote then borders should be a mild nuisance at worst, and at best a force multiplier. Example: Show me a startup in the YC job board based in Canada (there are many these days) that is hiring locally only for software engineers.
    - herbst 4y ago
      Shopify did hire talent from Europe years ago. I would see them on every bigger networking event with glossy flyers about how they will pay for everything if you want to move and work there.
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        Europe is not equivalent to the US. Granted, it's outside Canada, but it's probably even cheaper than Canada.
    - throw123123123 4y ago
      Shopify does not pay well
    - spullara 4y ago
      Shopify should not be considered a tech company. Ecommerce in general isn't a technology problem. Just to give you an example of how comically small fintech is here is a global example: Visa processes around 1,700 transactions per second.
  - 4y ago
- gumby 4y ago
  > Bay Area companies hire in the Bay Area, for the same reason companies are founded in the Bay Area to begin with: because most of the VCs in the US live in the Bay Area. You're putting the cart before the horse. Investors live all over the place, and large funds have offices in markets where there is a signifcant number of possible high growth companies to invest in. And they'll invest where they don't have an office and always have. The reason why so many investors are in silicon valley and san francisco is because of the companies. And the companies are here because of the environment. I've worked around the world but the reason I love working in the valley (specifically the peninsula) and not elsewhere, not even SF, is because of the extreme density of people, resources, markets, and just the sheer intensity of the place. I hire from all over the world, but really, just getting shit done is so much easier around here. Ignore the bros. Those assholes get the press 'coz they're interesting to write about. I'm talking about nerds in true tech businesses like hardware, software, mechanical systems, pharma. It's not for everyone, and even people who would like it may choose elsewhere for other reasons. Those decisions are all legit too.
  - derefr 4y ago
    Two-sided markets have virtuous-cycle network effects, yes. DARPA made Silicon Valley, but Stanford and UC Berkeley — and nearby communities that evolved to become basically playgrounds for the students of them — kept it going. Entrepreneurs came (or stayed) to capture the supply of smart and bored college-aged intellectual labor; and VCs came (or stayed) because of all the entrepreneurs. But that doesn't mean that seed-stage companies don't move to (or stay in) the Bay Area these days primarily because of the VCs, rather than because of the talent. Talent is free to move anywhere it likes — especially these days. An entrepreneur will find just as many potential employees for their startup in literally any college city. But tech VCs (and especially ex-tech-entrepreneur angel investors) will, despite having a presence in many places, mostly still live and spend their free time in the Bay Area. And so you'll be much more likely to have your name on their lips if you're showing up at local events they attend, bumping into them at restaurants, meeting them on the golf course, etc. Let me put it this way: every Canadian seed-stage startup I know of, has their CEO regularly fly to the Bay — even if they're located on the east coast of Canada! — to rub shoulders with the Sand Hill VCs, in hopes that they'll get more attention there.
xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
> Making Bay Area offers to rural candidates is giving them 4-5x their next best option, which is characteristic of either a) the devil, or b) rich people making expressive displays rather than business transactions. No? If you budget to hire two employees at Bay Area salaries and don't care where they work, you should pay them Bay Area salaries regardless of where they work. Plenty of companies do this. It's fine. I don't see anything devilish or expressive about paying all your staff the same wages. > I will add that if you think calibrating an offer based on the worker’s alternatives is crass I think you're foolish if you don't expect a worker's alternative might be in the Bay Area salary range in the year 2022. > Even a mediocre SWE salary is way too high. It's not. The dollar-value delivered by a mediocre SWE has been significantly high for a long time, often orders of magnitude the salary.
- chrismcb 4y ago
  But if you can hire two people from anywhere, why budget may area salaries?
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    Because then you won't be hiring people from the Bay Area -- or me.
- closeparen 4y ago
  If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did. Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense. It is exactly an expression of the company's values: that it thinks paying people the same is inherently, morally good. Which is not an uncommon set of values in tech! If you can find a company like that, more power to you. But whether it's sustainable to be paying more than necessary for some of the staff depends on the company's economic conditions. If the company ever needs to trim its sails, then reverting to location-based pay would be a natural step.
  - 4y ago

derefr 4y ago

Bay Area companies hire in the Bay Area, for the same reason companies are founded in the Bay Area to begin with: because most of the VCs in the US live in the Bay Area. And Bay Area investors care a lot about having a package of colocated staff "human assets" that put an acquihire-based floor on the company's acquisition price. Companies that don't operate from the Bay Area, almost never hire Bay Area remote workers; and companies that are headquartered outside of the US, almost never hire US remote workers. Precisely because they cost too much, for a company that gets no advantage from doing so. (Source: we are a Canadian company; we hire from everywhere but the US.)

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
> Source: we are a Canadian company, and hire from everywhere but the US. I don't follow. This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. If you work for a Canadian company that doesn't hire in the US then you're comically underpaid. Wages are converging very fast. Many companies are paying parity and frankly folks are selling themselves short if they don't fight for parity. (If you're not talking about software development, then ignore me)
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. Probably only after they get to a certain scale and cannot find more talent in Canada? When did Shopify start hiring in the US - right from the beginning?
  - xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
    No? If I started a company in Canada tomorrow, why would I reduce my talent pool and not look at the US? Most startups are eschewing offices in an obvious move for cash-strapped businesses. If you're hiring remote then borders should be a mild nuisance at worst, and at best a force multiplier. Example: Show me a startup in the YC job board based in Canada (there are many these days) that is hiring locally only for software engineers.
  - herbst 4y ago
    Shopify did hire talent from Europe years ago. I would see them on every bigger networking event with glossy flyers about how they will pay for everything if you want to move and work there.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      Europe is not equivalent to the US. Granted, it's outside Canada, but it's probably even cheaper than Canada.
  - throw123123123 4y ago
    Shopify does not pay well
  - spullara 4y ago
    Shopify should not be considered a tech company. Ecommerce in general isn't a technology problem. Just to give you an example of how comically small fintech is here is a global example: Visa processes around 1,700 transactions per second.
- 4y ago
gumby 4y ago
> Bay Area companies hire in the Bay Area, for the same reason companies are founded in the Bay Area to begin with: because most of the VCs in the US live in the Bay Area. You're putting the cart before the horse. Investors live all over the place, and large funds have offices in markets where there is a signifcant number of possible high growth companies to invest in. And they'll invest where they don't have an office and always have. The reason why so many investors are in silicon valley and san francisco is because of the companies. And the companies are here because of the environment. I've worked around the world but the reason I love working in the valley (specifically the peninsula) and not elsewhere, not even SF, is because of the extreme density of people, resources, markets, and just the sheer intensity of the place. I hire from all over the world, but really, just getting shit done is so much easier around here. Ignore the bros. Those assholes get the press 'coz they're interesting to write about. I'm talking about nerds in true tech businesses like hardware, software, mechanical systems, pharma. It's not for everyone, and even people who would like it may choose elsewhere for other reasons. Those decisions are all legit too.
- derefr 4y ago
  Two-sided markets have virtuous-cycle network effects, yes. DARPA made Silicon Valley, but Stanford and UC Berkeley — and nearby communities that evolved to become basically playgrounds for the students of them — kept it going. Entrepreneurs came (or stayed) to capture the supply of smart and bored college-aged intellectual labor; and VCs came (or stayed) because of all the entrepreneurs. But that doesn't mean that seed-stage companies don't move to (or stay in) the Bay Area these days primarily because of the VCs, rather than because of the talent. Talent is free to move anywhere it likes — especially these days. An entrepreneur will find just as many potential employees for their startup in literally any college city. But tech VCs (and especially ex-tech-entrepreneur angel investors) will, despite having a presence in many places, mostly still live and spend their free time in the Bay Area. And so you'll be much more likely to have your name on their lips if you're showing up at local events they attend, bumping into them at restaurants, meeting them on the golf course, etc. Let me put it this way: every Canadian seed-stage startup I know of, has their CEO regularly fly to the Bay — even if they're located on the east coast of Canada! — to rub shoulders with the Sand Hill VCs, in hopes that they'll get more attention there.

xyzzy_plugh 4y ago

> Making Bay Area offers to rural candidates is giving them 4-5x their next best option, which is characteristic of either a) the devil, or b) rich people making expressive displays rather than business transactions. No? If you budget to hire two employees at Bay Area salaries and don't care where they work, you should pay them Bay Area salaries regardless of where they work. Plenty of companies do this. It's fine. I don't see anything devilish or expressive about paying all your staff the same wages. > I will add that if you think calibrating an offer based on the worker’s alternatives is crass I think you're foolish if you don't expect a worker's alternative might be in the Bay Area salary range in the year 2022. > Even a mediocre SWE salary is way too high. It's not. The dollar-value delivered by a mediocre SWE has been significantly high for a long time, often orders of magnitude the salary.

chrismcb 4y ago
But if you can hire two people from anywhere, why budget may area salaries?
- xyzzy_plugh 4y ago
  Because then you won't be hiring people from the Bay Area -- or me.
closeparen 4y ago
If employers stop getting the candidates they want with location-based offers, they will go away. Right now people may grumble, but they sign. Like OP did. Making a Bay Area offer when you could just as well have closed the candidate with a locally competitive offer doesn't make business sense. It is exactly an expression of the company's values: that it thinks paying people the same is inherently, morally good. Which is not an uncommon set of values in tech! If you can find a company like that, more power to you. But whether it's sustainable to be paying more than necessary for some of the staff depends on the company's economic conditions. If the company ever needs to trim its sails, then reverting to location-based pay would be a natural step.
- 4y ago