6 ms·

> like saying "You can only have hamburgers two ways, cook them yourself or McDonalds." and your comment seems to be saying it’s OK if we lose the ability to

> like saying "You can only have hamburgers two ways, cook them yourself or McDonalds." and your comment seems to be saying it’s OK if we lose the ability to cook hamburgers at home, because there are other (more ethical) restaurants that aren’t McDonalds. am i misunderstanding?

Avamander 4y ago
The metaphor is kinda good. It's okay for people to refuse your home-cooked burgers because they don't trust them to be safe. There are actual small food vendors that comply with sanitation rules and you can have them provide catering services, professionally. And that is okay.
- carrotcarrot 4y ago
  People aren't choosing. Businesses are choosing to reject them before the human ever knows it was sent.
- RockingGoodNite 4y ago
  Public health is not at stake. I want to cook my own damn email burger thank you.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    If you're trying to deliver to others, it is.
    - RockingGoodNite 4y ago
      Google "is email delivery guaranteed", it isn't.
      - Avamander 4y ago
        What's your point?
        jrm4 4y ago
        I'll take a shot here. I'm not sure why you think Gmail or the other biggies can actually guarantee delivery any better or worse than anyone else. In a technical sense, they definitely can't. In an anecdotal sense, I mean, I've dealt with my hostdime stuff, gmail and outlook. My stuff and gmail deliver just fine. Outlook does fail. In a practical sense, see issue above. I think "non-delivery" via the big-boys getting things wrong on spam (and worse future outcomes, pretty easy to imagine gmail trying to "amp" or something similar email such that it cuts out little guys) is a far far greater danger or problem than an individual or smaller outfit tinkering with their own servers and occasionally getting things wrong.
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Absolutely! Another way to look at it: In what world are you more likely to be able to cook your own burger: One where it's literally just McDonalds who can now control how people talk about burgers, or one where there's also other restaurants as well.
- pas 4y ago
  we mandate public health measures because it's kind of easy to check for "safe to eat" quality. also arguably it's too ineffective considering how hard it is to open a restaurant. (because instead of harassing random taco trucks we should focus on other preventative measures, better visibility of food safety, better reporting and tracking) sure maybe it's time for a "Let's Email" (after letsencrypt) service that handles reputation for email senders. we already have certificate transparency logs, OCSP, CAA records, and all the fancy stuff, what's needed is something similar.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    > sure maybe it's time for a "Let's Email" (after letsencrypt) service that handles reputation for email senders. > what's needed is something similar. There are more than a few out there. No offense but if you would have had dealt with spam, you would have known that already.
    - pas 4y ago
      I know, and they are quite useless since the big mailbox hosts don't interact with them. the wonder of letsencrypt is that it does have the backing of Google et al.
jrm4 4y ago
No. To beat up the metaphor, I'm saying if we support the restaurants that aren't McDonalds and that are more "mom and pop" (and get others on board) then we can beat McDonalds or at least live in harmony with them.
- RockingGoodNite 4y ago
  To colinsane's point, I don't want to be a restaurant, I want to cook my burger at home. A lot of us do. You're OK with the Hostdime restaurant. I'm OK cooking my own burger. A lot of us are and we don't want to lose that right.
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Said it above; but I 100% agree with you. My point has "second-order" effects. I'm not necessarily saying your email has to go away and you HAVE to use hostdime. I'm saying the goal of McDonalds is to dominate and obsucre everything and anything that cuts into that is useful, especially third-parties like Hostdime. For someone like me that finds it too hard, but also finds gmail unacceptable this is a good (and should be obvious) solution. How I explain this in real life: "You'd be stupid to run a business off of gmail. When your phone or internet or electricity goes down, you can call a human and yell at them because you pay them. What happens for google? This is why I pay someone."

Avamander 4y ago

The metaphor is kinda good. It's okay for people to refuse your home-cooked burgers because they don't trust them to be safe. There are actual small food vendors that comply with sanitation rules and you can have them provide catering services, professionally. And that is okay.

carrotcarrot 4y ago
People aren't choosing. Businesses are choosing to reject them before the human ever knows it was sent.
RockingGoodNite 4y ago
Public health is not at stake. I want to cook my own damn email burger thank you.
- Avamander 4y ago
  If you're trying to deliver to others, it is.
  - RockingGoodNite 4y ago
    Google "is email delivery guaranteed", it isn't.
    - Avamander 4y ago
      What's your point?
      - jrm4 4y ago
        I'll take a shot here. I'm not sure why you think Gmail or the other biggies can actually guarantee delivery any better or worse than anyone else. In a technical sense, they definitely can't. In an anecdotal sense, I mean, I've dealt with my hostdime stuff, gmail and outlook. My stuff and gmail deliver just fine. Outlook does fail. In a practical sense, see issue above. I think "non-delivery" via the big-boys getting things wrong on spam (and worse future outcomes, pretty easy to imagine gmail trying to "amp" or something similar email such that it cuts out little guys) is a far far greater danger or problem than an individual or smaller outfit tinkering with their own servers and occasionally getting things wrong.
- jrm4 4y ago
  Absolutely! Another way to look at it: In what world are you more likely to be able to cook your own burger: One where it's literally just McDonalds who can now control how people talk about burgers, or one where there's also other restaurants as well.
pas 4y ago
we mandate public health measures because it's kind of easy to check for "safe to eat" quality. also arguably it's too ineffective considering how hard it is to open a restaurant. (because instead of harassing random taco trucks we should focus on other preventative measures, better visibility of food safety, better reporting and tracking) sure maybe it's time for a "Let's Email" (after letsencrypt) service that handles reputation for email senders. we already have certificate transparency logs, OCSP, CAA records, and all the fancy stuff, what's needed is something similar.
- Avamander 4y ago
  > sure maybe it's time for a "Let's Email" (after letsencrypt) service that handles reputation for email senders. > what's needed is something similar. There are more than a few out there. No offense but if you would have had dealt with spam, you would have known that already.
  - pas 4y ago
    I know, and they are quite useless since the big mailbox hosts don't interact with them. the wonder of letsencrypt is that it does have the backing of Google et al.

jrm4 4y ago

No. To beat up the metaphor, I'm saying if we support the restaurants that aren't McDonalds and that are more "mom and pop" (and get others on board) then we can beat McDonalds or at least live in harmony with them.

RockingGoodNite 4y ago
To colinsane's point, I don't want to be a restaurant, I want to cook my burger at home. A lot of us do. You're OK with the Hostdime restaurant. I'm OK cooking my own burger. A lot of us are and we don't want to lose that right.
- jrm4 4y ago
  Said it above; but I 100% agree with you. My point has "second-order" effects. I'm not necessarily saying your email has to go away and you HAVE to use hostdime. I'm saying the goal of McDonalds is to dominate and obsucre everything and anything that cuts into that is useful, especially third-parties like Hostdime. For someone like me that finds it too hard, but also finds gmail unacceptable this is a good (and should be obvious) solution. How I explain this in real life: "You'd be stupid to run a business off of gmail. When your phone or internet or electricity goes down, you can call a human and yell at them because you pay them. What happens for google? This is why I pay someone."