5 ms·

The trouble with 5G is that it will be the final nail in the coffin of location privacy, assuming most people carry their phone with them at most times. LTE is

by Lammy 4y ago

The trouble with 5G is that it will be the final nail in the coffin of location privacy, assuming most people carry their phone with them at most times. LTE is already very "good" at this, but 5G brings centimeter-precision. https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/12/5g-positioning--what-you-need-to-know https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/12/5g-positioning--wha... sez — “The arrival of 5G delivers new enhanced parameters for positioning accuracy down to the meter, decimeter and centimeter.” “Positioning of users and devices across general indoor environments, such as offices, shops, logistics, etc., was a focus area of 3GPP Release 16.” https://venturebeat.com/mobile/sk-telecom-will-use-5g-to-build-centimeter-level-accurate-city-maps/ https://venturebeat.com/mobile/sk-telecom-will-use-5g-to-bui... sez — “While current [2019] smartphones can under some circumstances send and receive location data with 3-foot accuracy, it takes an external GNSS receiver to access location services with centimeter-level accuracy.” https://www.fastcompany.com/90314058/5g-means-youll-have-to-say-goodbye-to-your-location-privacy https://www.fastcompany.com/90314058/5g-means-youll-have-to-... sez — “[5G network positioning] data can also enable advertisers and data brokers to see the exact routes you take each day and even which buildings you go into. And anyone with access to your mobile network’s cell tower data will now be able to track your movements in real time.”

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Which 5G does these are talking about? The sub 6GHz 5G aka relabeled LTE or the mmWave/UWB 5G? Because the UWB does not really penetrate anything, so it might be working good in lab, but useless in practice.
- charles_kaw 4y ago
  It's not in the general, constant sense that you have to worry about, but rather in specific applications. When you're out in public, "they" will have 3-meter-accuracy, more than enough. But when you're in stores, and malls, and other venues where UWB is set up, then that's where real problems begin. They'll be able to track which advertisements you linger around, and which sections you visit. It's going to be a whole new category of passive location tracking.
  - dicknuckle 4y ago
    My opinion is that in-building tracking doesn't have to be an issue, and the people who care don't linger watching advertisements in Malls. More power to someone who finds a way to use that data to make buildings like Grocery stores more efficient, like getting room temp products first and frozen things last during the walk.
  - cerol 4y ago
    There are companies doing this already, but with their current CCTV systems. You don't even have to buy equipment, just the software, and you get e-commerce metrics for brick and mortar stores
- nine_k 4y ago
  It works on stadiums and other similar hugely crowded open venues, which is the point of it, AFAICT.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  > relabeled LTE To be pedantic, LTE stands for “Long-term evolution” and was always intended to be the foundation of future cell network standards. I won’t get too into the details, but generations 1-4 dealt primarily with modulation techniques, and OFDM (the technique used in LTE) is more or less the best we know how to do over wireless.
  - pgorczak 4y ago
    To add some confusion, the “nth generation” features have been described by the International Telecommunication Union (e.g. IMT-2020 for the 5th gen), while the standards are developed by the 3rd Generation Partnership Project. Previously the standards had their own names (UMTS in 3G, LTE in 4G) but now the 3GPP is labeling their current releases of standards “5G” too, and yeah they include some concepts that go back even to 3G.
    - teleforce 4y ago
      To add further to the confusions, 3G network systems has been made obsolete by not being supported anymore by the 4G/5G operators around the world and somehow they would revert back to EDGE network systems (2.5G) if the wireless signals are bad [1]. [1]https://www.wired.com/story/3g-service-sunset-what-it-means https://www.wired.com/story/3g-service-sunset-what-it-means
      - RC_ITR 4y ago
        Lol, it's all about that sweet sweet spectrum
ok_dad 4y ago
On one hand, this technology has all sorts of good uses, like helping emergency services find someone calling them inside a building or helping you navigate in skyscrapers where GPS doesn't work well. On the other hand, humans are steaming piles of shit and probably can't be trusted to use this technology properly for just "good" uses. I guess there's no way to reverse course, but it makes me sad that my son might grow up without privacy, where his mistakes are never forgotten.
- kragen 4y ago
  They'll be forgotten unless he decides to criticize the police, the ruling party, or Verizon. Or spends a lot of time walking near people who do.
- fosk 4y ago
  It’s inevitable that the advance of technology will both improve the world and potentially be a vector of potential misuse. Ultimately, it has always been like that, since the dawn of civilization. The answer is not fighting technological advances, but regulating the use of technology from law enforcement (and the government, and bad actors) instead.
diebeforei485 4y ago
This only applies to places with UWB (mmWave) which is very few places. Prior to 5G, the network was borderline unusable in these crowded places and people used Wi-Fi (which has similar location tracking concerns). For the average user this hasn't changed anything. For very privacy-conscious users, you can always turn off UWB.
- yetanotherloser 4y ago
  Can you? Can you really?
  - Arnt 4y ago
    Does it matter? If you do, you'll be using Wifi in those places, which has similar privacy problems, right? And if you disable both, you barely have coverage in those places, which doesn't seem better.
    - yetanotherloser 4y ago
      Ordinary mobile network use is not all that location-private. Wifi is worse. Looks like the mmwave 5g is even worse than that. Exact location privacy rarely directly matters to me personally but it doesn't follow that there is no risk of society-scale bad effects, or impact on other people that I ought to be concerned about. What I questioned, though, was whether it will really be practical for anyone to choose how much they engage with this. It's not so hard to turn wifi off when out and on when at home, lots of people do mote because it can be a nuisance than out of privacy concern. Will it really be equally easy to choose which bits of 5g spectrum a phone uses? If you think so, I have a a bridge for sale...
- nine_k 4y ago
  Privacy vs coverage in crowded places seems like a valid (though uncomfortable) choice. In crowded places like trains or planes, where it matters most for me personally, you already don't have a location privacy once you've boarded: your seat is known.
clairity 4y ago
besides the standard bandwidth improvements, it's pretty clear that this is why the major telcos were pushing 5G so hard, so they could sell that more precise location data to any and all comers.
squarefoot 4y ago
Add to this "smart" washing machines, fridges, dishwashers, air conditioners, irons, stoves, etc. and of course cars and TVs, all happily phoning home the user's personal data with their always on internal module that nobody can disable or filter, since they don't make use anymore of the user's home network. I expect in a few years even shoes will connect somewhere while being powered and recharged by walking. And of course free gait analysis through internal pressure sensors and accelerometers, apps for running or dancing (turn on a IoT device by doing a tip-tap, find your ideal dancing partner, etc) will be the way manufacturers will sell them to the masses, at the price of more and more personal data being surrendered. I don't care much about what people do with their privacy, that's their business, but how can I enter someone's house, shop or car knowing that there will be no less than a half dozen devices listening to my voice or shooting a picture of me without asking? Note that I absolutely love the good that 5G and further technologies can bring. It's just some of their uses that concern me.
- NovaVeles 4y ago
  Microwave your shoes for 5 seconds, kill that chip. ;) For everything else, no idea.
- ddxxdd 4y ago
  >how can I enter someone's house, shop or car knowing that there will be no less than a half dozen devices listening to my voice or shooting a picture of me without asking? There are solutions to that problem: https://xkcd.com/1807/ https://xkcd.com/1807/
- gibs0ns 4y ago
  How long until we start seeing HN headlines like; How I turned my home into a faraday cage to stop all those pesky IoT devices phoning home.
  - pluijzer 4y ago
    This already exists. For a project I worked with a 'house of the future' style project. Which was build in a way that it was a faraday cage that had an option of letting selected frequencies through.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
joecool1029 4y ago
>The trouble with 5G is that it will be the final nail in the coffin of location privacy, And yet it's first deployed set of standards that encrypts IMSI? (this is pushing Stingrays to obsolescence, Harris stopped making them) https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide-digital-identity-and-security/mobile/magazine/5g-sim-security-and-privacy-imsis https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide-digital-identity-an... < from one of the world's primary producers of SIM cards. In a densified enough network (cities) the carrier knows where users are within a few meters by correlating timing advance from the towers. This is independent of any software installed on user equipment. mmwave spectrum in the most populated areas (stadiums/train stations) brings this to centimeter-level due to physics, but we're just splitting hairs. This should be a key area of focus on privacy legislation, on 'who' should be allowed to access this data (LEO with a warrant). Even if user device lacks the hardware, the network side can have hardware installed to measure precise location of user equipment Other wireless technologies independent of the cellular network can be used for correlation and privacy relies on the device randomizing macaddr for beacons, both Bluetooth and WiFi. GNSS (except for Beidou, which is disabled in firmware in the US) are one-way comms unless the phone is snitching on you.
- walterbell 4y ago
  https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/5g-protocol-may-still-be-vulnerable-imsi-catchers https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/5g-protocol-may-still-... > this attack provides a new way to track a user’s location not just over 3G and 4G, but even over 5G. Location tracking seems to be the most common use for IMSI catchers by American law enforcement and this vulnerability could provide the next generation of CSSs with a way to track user location, even over 5G. > It’s important to keep in mind here that, for cases of lawful intervention from law enforcement agencies, there are better ways than this attack technique to get location information, such as getting a warrant and getting the information directly from the phone companies. People working outside the legal system, such as spies and criminals, cannot get warrants and cannot typically work directly with the phone companies.
  - swores 4y ago
    > criminals, cannot get warrants and cannot typically work directly with the phone companies. Colour me skeptical on the latter. What kind of criminal is tech savvy enough to want location data, but can't think of either using a fake business to buy the data (if it's legally allowed to be sold by the phone company), or bribing a phone company employee, or becoming / having one of your criminal team become an employee there, or commit another crime such as hacking into the phone company to steal data, or...?
RF_Savage 4y ago
Yeah, accurate positioning is the inevitable end result of massive-MIMO. You need to know where the handset is to point the antenna beam towards it. And it needs to update fast enough that it can be in a vehicle on the highway or a high speed train and still maintain connectivity. The need to have more users on the same spevtrum requires sharper antenna beamwidths and smaller cells. All of which either require more precise positioning or make it possible. All of this is linked with the technology used. Sadly I only see legistlation limiting what can be collected and used being a counter for this getting exploited.

by Lammy 4y ago

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

Which 5G does these are talking about? The sub 6GHz 5G aka relabeled LTE or the mmWave/UWB 5G? Because the UWB does not really penetrate anything, so it might be working good in lab, but useless in practice.

charles_kaw 4y ago
It's not in the general, constant sense that you have to worry about, but rather in specific applications. When you're out in public, "they" will have 3-meter-accuracy, more than enough. But when you're in stores, and malls, and other venues where UWB is set up, then that's where real problems begin. They'll be able to track which advertisements you linger around, and which sections you visit. It's going to be a whole new category of passive location tracking.
- dicknuckle 4y ago
  My opinion is that in-building tracking doesn't have to be an issue, and the people who care don't linger watching advertisements in Malls. More power to someone who finds a way to use that data to make buildings like Grocery stores more efficient, like getting room temp products first and frozen things last during the walk.
- cerol 4y ago
  There are companies doing this already, but with their current CCTV systems. You don't even have to buy equipment, just the software, and you get e-commerce metrics for brick and mortar stores
nine_k 4y ago
It works on stadiums and other similar hugely crowded open venues, which is the point of it, AFAICT.
RC_ITR 4y ago
> relabeled LTE To be pedantic, LTE stands for “Long-term evolution” and was always intended to be the foundation of future cell network standards. I won’t get too into the details, but generations 1-4 dealt primarily with modulation techniques, and OFDM (the technique used in LTE) is more or less the best we know how to do over wireless.
- pgorczak 4y ago
  To add some confusion, the “nth generation” features have been described by the International Telecommunication Union (e.g. IMT-2020 for the 5th gen), while the standards are developed by the 3rd Generation Partnership Project. Previously the standards had their own names (UMTS in 3G, LTE in 4G) but now the 3GPP is labeling their current releases of standards “5G” too, and yeah they include some concepts that go back even to 3G.
  - teleforce 4y ago
    To add further to the confusions, 3G network systems has been made obsolete by not being supported anymore by the 4G/5G operators around the world and somehow they would revert back to EDGE network systems (2.5G) if the wireless signals are bad [1]. [1]https://www.wired.com/story/3g-service-sunset-what-it-means https://www.wired.com/story/3g-service-sunset-what-it-means
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      Lol, it's all about that sweet sweet spectrum

ok_dad 4y ago

On one hand, this technology has all sorts of good uses, like helping emergency services find someone calling them inside a building or helping you navigate in skyscrapers where GPS doesn't work well. On the other hand, humans are steaming piles of shit and probably can't be trusted to use this technology properly for just "good" uses. I guess there's no way to reverse course, but it makes me sad that my son might grow up without privacy, where his mistakes are never forgotten.

kragen 4y ago
They'll be forgotten unless he decides to criticize the police, the ruling party, or Verizon. Or spends a lot of time walking near people who do.
fosk 4y ago
It’s inevitable that the advance of technology will both improve the world and potentially be a vector of potential misuse. Ultimately, it has always been like that, since the dawn of civilization. The answer is not fighting technological advances, but regulating the use of technology from law enforcement (and the government, and bad actors) instead.

diebeforei485 4y ago

This only applies to places with UWB (mmWave) which is very few places. Prior to 5G, the network was borderline unusable in these crowded places and people used Wi-Fi (which has similar location tracking concerns). For the average user this hasn't changed anything. For very privacy-conscious users, you can always turn off UWB.

yetanotherloser 4y ago
Can you? Can you really?
- Arnt 4y ago
  Does it matter? If you do, you'll be using Wifi in those places, which has similar privacy problems, right? And if you disable both, you barely have coverage in those places, which doesn't seem better.
  - yetanotherloser 4y ago
    Ordinary mobile network use is not all that location-private. Wifi is worse. Looks like the mmwave 5g is even worse than that. Exact location privacy rarely directly matters to me personally but it doesn't follow that there is no risk of society-scale bad effects, or impact on other people that I ought to be concerned about. What I questioned, though, was whether it will really be practical for anyone to choose how much they engage with this. It's not so hard to turn wifi off when out and on when at home, lots of people do mote because it can be a nuisance than out of privacy concern. Will it really be equally easy to choose which bits of 5g spectrum a phone uses? If you think so, I have a a bridge for sale...
nine_k 4y ago
Privacy vs coverage in crowded places seems like a valid (though uncomfortable) choice. In crowded places like trains or planes, where it matters most for me personally, you already don't have a location privacy once you've boarded: your seat is known.

clairity 4y ago

besides the standard bandwidth improvements, it's pretty clear that this is why the major telcos were pushing 5G so hard, so they could sell that more precise location data to any and all comers.

squarefoot 4y ago

Add to this "smart" washing machines, fridges, dishwashers, air conditioners, irons, stoves, etc. and of course cars and TVs, all happily phoning home the user's personal data with their always on internal module that nobody can disable or filter, since they don't make use anymore of the user's home network. I expect in a few years even shoes will connect somewhere while being powered and recharged by walking. And of course free gait analysis through internal pressure sensors and accelerometers, apps for running or dancing (turn on a IoT device by doing a tip-tap, find your ideal dancing partner, etc) will be the way manufacturers will sell them to the masses, at the price of more and more personal data being surrendered. I don't care much about what people do with their privacy, that's their business, but how can I enter someone's house, shop or car knowing that there will be no less than a half dozen devices listening to my voice or shooting a picture of me without asking? Note that I absolutely love the good that 5G and further technologies can bring. It's just some of their uses that concern me.

NovaVeles 4y ago
Microwave your shoes for 5 seconds, kill that chip. ;) For everything else, no idea.
ddxxdd 4y ago
>how can I enter someone's house, shop or car knowing that there will be no less than a half dozen devices listening to my voice or shooting a picture of me without asking? There are solutions to that problem: https://xkcd.com/1807/ https://xkcd.com/1807/
gibs0ns 4y ago
How long until we start seeing HN headlines like; How I turned my home into a faraday cage to stop all those pesky IoT devices phoning home.
- pluijzer 4y ago
  This already exists. For a project I worked with a 'house of the future' style project. Which was build in a way that it was a faraday cage that had an option of letting selected frequencies through.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

joecool1029 4y ago

>The trouble with 5G is that it will be the final nail in the coffin of location privacy, And yet it's first deployed set of standards that encrypts IMSI? (this is pushing Stingrays to obsolescence, Harris stopped making them) https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide-digital-identity-and-security/mobile/magazine/5g-sim-security-and-privacy-imsis https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide-digital-identity-an... < from one of the world's primary producers of SIM cards. In a densified enough network (cities) the carrier knows where users are within a few meters by correlating timing advance from the towers. This is independent of any software installed on user equipment. mmwave spectrum in the most populated areas (stadiums/train stations) brings this to centimeter-level due to physics, but we're just splitting hairs. This should be a key area of focus on privacy legislation, on 'who' should be allowed to access this data (LEO with a warrant). Even if user device lacks the hardware, the network side can have hardware installed to measure precise location of user equipment Other wireless technologies independent of the cellular network can be used for correlation and privacy relies on the device randomizing macaddr for beacons, both Bluetooth and WiFi. GNSS (except for Beidou, which is disabled in firmware in the US) are one-way comms unless the phone is snitching on you.

walterbell 4y ago
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/5g-protocol-may-still-be-vulnerable-imsi-catchers https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/5g-protocol-may-still-... > this attack provides a new way to track a user’s location not just over 3G and 4G, but even over 5G. Location tracking seems to be the most common use for IMSI catchers by American law enforcement and this vulnerability could provide the next generation of CSSs with a way to track user location, even over 5G. > It’s important to keep in mind here that, for cases of lawful intervention from law enforcement agencies, there are better ways than this attack technique to get location information, such as getting a warrant and getting the information directly from the phone companies. People working outside the legal system, such as spies and criminals, cannot get warrants and cannot typically work directly with the phone companies.
- swores 4y ago
  > criminals, cannot get warrants and cannot typically work directly with the phone companies. Colour me skeptical on the latter. What kind of criminal is tech savvy enough to want location data, but can't think of either using a fake business to buy the data (if it's legally allowed to be sold by the phone company), or bribing a phone company employee, or becoming / having one of your criminal team become an employee there, or commit another crime such as hacking into the phone company to steal data, or...?

RF_Savage 4y ago

Yeah, accurate positioning is the inevitable end result of massive-MIMO. You need to know where the handset is to point the antenna beam towards it. And it needs to update fast enough that it can be in a vehicle on the highway or a high speed train and still maintain connectivity. The need to have more users on the same spevtrum requires sharper antenna beamwidths and smaller cells. All of which either require more precise positioning or make it possible. All of this is linked with the technology used. Sadly I only see legistlation limiting what can be collected and used being a counter for this getting exploited.