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It's frankly appalling that the agriculture lobby has made people believe that California is anywhere near needing desalination or even frankly grey water for u

by RC_ITR 4y ago

It's frankly appalling that the agriculture lobby has made people believe that California is anywhere near needing desalination or even frankly grey water for urban use. California residents use a very small amount of California's water, most is Ag, which is exported to the rest of the world. [0] So the idea that California is somehow shooting themselves in the foot (rather than refusing to further subsidize the Ag. industry which has done insane damage to the state's ecology) is severely misinformed. [0]https://cwc.ca.gov/-/media/CWC-Website/Files/Documents/2019/06_June/June2019_Item_12_Attach_2_PPICFactSheets.pdf https://cwc.ca.gov/-/media/CWC-Website/Files/Documents/2019/...

sologoub 4y ago
The thing is, the less we take out of the environment, the more water is left for things like fish, birds, insects and so on. Desalination is not without environmental costs, but we are not considering all the externalities of diverting water from ecosystems either. Ag use is part of that water rights system that we need independence from. Desalination is one way for that independence. I’m sure there are other ways too.
capitainenemo 4y ago
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-doing/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-d... "But if all the savings from water rationing amounted to 20% of our residential water use, then that equals about 0.5 MAF, which is about 10% of the water used to irrigate alfalfa. The California alfalfa industry makes a total of $860 million worth of alfalfa hay per year. So if you calculate it out, a California resident who wants to spend her fair share of money to solve the water crisis without worrying about cutting back could do it by paying the alfalfa industry $2 to not grow $2 worth of alfalfa, thus saving as much water as if she very carefully rationed her own use." https://www.npr.org/2015/04/18/400573611/a-water-markets-might-work-in-california https://www.npr.org/2015/04/18/400573611/a-water-markets-mig... It seems main issue is no political will in California to resolve it..
- azinman2 4y ago
  But that alfalfa also goes to feed cows, which feed humans. All that’s grown in CA supports humans. You could get all “America first” with it, which has some merit here, but CA still massively feeds the US.
  - capitainenemo 4y ago
    If that alfalfa is really that cheap and easily shipped, it doesn't seem to make economic sense to produce it there, and if there was a real water market, it seems it would not be. So, producing cow feed in calfornia seems, at least from those 2 articles to not only be heavily subsidised by a poorly designed system of legacy water rights, but also completely unsustainable. That is... get the water priced correctly, and let the market sort out ratio of cow alfalfa production to other water priorities...
  - throwaway09223 4y ago
    "All that’s grown in CA supports humans." This can be said about anything, but what matters is whether its is better to do something else to provide the same support. California only produces 3% of the country's hay. We could just grow a bit more elsewhere to compensate. Ending alfalfa in California wouldn't be a big deal. It's an extremely low value crop. Meanwhile, to grow this tiny amount of alfalfa we spend more than double all household water use in the entire state. Including swimming pools, toilets, showers, everything. It's inexplicably foolish.
  - orionion 4y ago
    It's not just burgers and steaks. Dairy cows turn alfalfa into milk and we turn milk into butter, cheese, yogurt, kefir, cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, ice cream, whey, casein, pudding, flan, caramel, crema, etc.
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      Dairy is significantly less resource intensive than meat (though still bad in its own right) since we don’t have to regrow a cow every time it is milked (whereas we do every time it’s slaughtered)

by RC_ITR 4y ago

sologoub 4y ago

The thing is, the less we take out of the environment, the more water is left for things like fish, birds, insects and so on. Desalination is not without environmental costs, but we are not considering all the externalities of diverting water from ecosystems either. Ag use is part of that water rights system that we need independence from. Desalination is one way for that independence. I’m sure there are other ways too.

capitainenemo 4y ago

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-doing/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-d... "But if all the savings from water rationing amounted to 20% of our residential water use, then that equals about 0.5 MAF, which is about 10% of the water used to irrigate alfalfa. The California alfalfa industry makes a total of $860 million worth of alfalfa hay per year. So if you calculate it out, a California resident who wants to spend her fair share of money to solve the water crisis without worrying about cutting back could do it by paying the alfalfa industry $2 to not grow $2 worth of alfalfa, thus saving as much water as if she very carefully rationed her own use." https://www.npr.org/2015/04/18/400573611/a-water-markets-might-work-in-california https://www.npr.org/2015/04/18/400573611/a-water-markets-mig... It seems main issue is no political will in California to resolve it..

azinman2 4y ago
But that alfalfa also goes to feed cows, which feed humans. All that’s grown in CA supports humans. You could get all “America first” with it, which has some merit here, but CA still massively feeds the US.
- capitainenemo 4y ago
  If that alfalfa is really that cheap and easily shipped, it doesn't seem to make economic sense to produce it there, and if there was a real water market, it seems it would not be. So, producing cow feed in calfornia seems, at least from those 2 articles to not only be heavily subsidised by a poorly designed system of legacy water rights, but also completely unsustainable. That is... get the water priced correctly, and let the market sort out ratio of cow alfalfa production to other water priorities...
- throwaway09223 4y ago
  "All that’s grown in CA supports humans." This can be said about anything, but what matters is whether its is better to do something else to provide the same support. California only produces 3% of the country's hay. We could just grow a bit more elsewhere to compensate. Ending alfalfa in California wouldn't be a big deal. It's an extremely low value crop. Meanwhile, to grow this tiny amount of alfalfa we spend more than double all household water use in the entire state. Including swimming pools, toilets, showers, everything. It's inexplicably foolish.
- orionion 4y ago
  It's not just burgers and steaks. Dairy cows turn alfalfa into milk and we turn milk into butter, cheese, yogurt, kefir, cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, ice cream, whey, casein, pudding, flan, caramel, crema, etc.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    Dairy is significantly less resource intensive than meat (though still bad in its own right) since we don’t have to regrow a cow every time it is milked (whereas we do every time it’s slaughtered)