3 ms·

And now if you "get it wrong" you still mostly get a functional experience at slower speed or resolution. Which is still a massive massive improvement over fin

by izacus 4y ago

And now if you "get it wrong" you still mostly get a functional experience at slower speed or resolution. Which is still a massive massive improvement over finding out that you can't plug in a device because you lack the exact same cable or needs. Nowadays this only happens at the edge of capabilities, not for basic functionality. Good riddance. I don't want to lug 10 cables with me instead of a single high end USB-C.

quest88 4y ago
I disagree. It's harder to debug why the peripheral is not 100% functional. Moreso for those non-technical folks.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  This. And I think there's also the software that's involved in all this. At work, I have an HP laptop with Thunderbolt 4, DP alt-mode, etc. I use an external screen and kb/mouse, so I have an HP USB-C G5 dock. It has a USB-C connector, only supports up to USB 3, but that's fine. It supports DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.0. Its cable is fixed, so I'd expect it to be "up to standard". Also, HP Dock, HP laptop, Windows 11 as recommended by HP, you'd expect all this to just work, right? Wrong! If I want 4k@60Hz on the monitor, I have to do a stupid dance of plugging the monitor on HDMI in addition to DP (doesn't work if DP isn't plugged in), unplug de DP, replug the DP, unplug the HDMI. It then works as expected. Colors are weird on HDMI (doesn't do 4:4:4 coding for some reason) so I insist on a DP connection. Once this setup gets going, it will usually survive a sleep / wake cycle (if the PC wakes up, but that's a different story). However, there's a pretty good chance the image will be partially messed up: most often crazy colors and moving lines, sometimes the image will be OK, only somewhat misaligned (think old LCDs with VGA connectors before "auto-adjusting" them) and the monitor will complain of frequency mismatch or something. If I switch inputs on the monitor, it will come back OK. It will not survive a reboot (have to do the dance again). The BIOS has a special "use high definition" entry, that warns against reducing the USB bandwidth. Didn't make a difference. At home, I have an HP desktop with Thunderbolt 3, DP out, etc. I have a USB-C monitor which works fine up until the Windows login screen when it goes blank (no signal). Windows install worked fine. It works if I force the resolution to less than 4k@60Hz. I only got to see the Windows desktop once with this. Didn't survive a reboot and never worked again. None of this happens with Linux/X11, everything works as expected on the same hardware. I fancy myself fairly technical, but I have to admit I have no idea what's going on. Not even where to start looking for issues. I've tried updating the BIOS/firmware across all devices, no luck.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It’s always the cable. Except when it’s not, then it’s another cable. What happens is Windows tries to help - and so switched out of the mode you wanted because something in the cable or negotiation indicated it wouldn’t work. Linux often doesn’t do that and just blindly runs ahead - and so if the monitor becomes working a moment later - it works. Utilities for Mac and windows can sometimes force what mode it uses.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      This could possibly explain the issue with the USB-C monitor, but then why would this work after the HDMI circus? The hardware and OS clearly are capable of doing this, and no cable is replaced in the process. I also don't move them around during the reboot.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        I’d suspect crappy monitor software that changes what it reports on ALL interfaces when it detects an HDMI cable.
        vladvasiliu 4y ago
        And yet, the same DP connector on the same monitor with the same cable works fine when plugged into a DP connector on another computer (on Windows).
  - paulmd 4y ago
    See my comment elsewhere but usb-c to hdmi or thunderbolt to hdmi is always an active conversion, and those converter chips are (in my experience) pretty shitty around edge cases like sleeping. Those problems I’m referencing only show up when the laptop comes back from sleep. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714107 Wouldn’t be surprising at all to me if it was just down to the active converter not handling it right, even on a fancy expensive dock. There are only so many active converter chips on the market after all and they’re oriented towards cost not correctness. And I mean, mine sorta works after sleep… like 3/4 or 7/8 times. And if it were an active cable that you were plugging and unplugging every time, that works 100%. You only notice the flaw because it’s a dock, and that’s not really what the converter was designed for.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It reminds me of people buying nice VGA LED monitors and running them at non native resolutions. I used to be quite well known as the “computer guy” because I would set people to native resolution.
- izacus 4y ago
  It's the exact same situation like having to debug a broken HDMI or DP cable. You don't get any more info, you just have less flexibility and more crap to lug around.
- wonnage 4y ago
  Things are just insanely complicated now but I don't blame the connector. I had the un-fun experience of trying to get 4k 60hz working on my Mac recently. Turns out I had to toggle a setting on my monitor to reserve more bandwidth for display resolution instead of for USB devices. This supposedly isn't a problem if the Mac supported display stream compression, and it's supposed to, but apparently that broke as part of some Big Sur update. USB has always had software bugs but the explosion of optional features and unexpected hardware combinations has made it feel like Bluetooth; connecting is the easy part, but have fun negotiating all the different profiles and making sure both ends of the connection support the same things.
colordrops 4y ago
Naw, I'd rather it not work than work at lower refresh rate or resolution.
- izacus 4y ago
  You can always then throw the cable in the garbage and simulate the old situation of not having anything.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    That's precisely what I do, after having lost a few hours messing with graphics drivers and kernel params before I realize it was the cable. Would have rather had my time back.
theshrike79 4y ago
It's really fun trying to debug that crap. For example: My Macbook Pro has a 87 watt USB-C power supply. My Steam Deck charges using USB-C. When I connect the two, the Deck tells me it's not charging at full power. While being connected to a 2x more powerful power supply than it's official one. Without consulting Google, can any regular person figure out what is the issue? (SPOILER: Steam Deck only charges using 15V, the Apple PSU supplies 9V and 20V, no 15V)
- rwiggins 4y ago
  I suppose at least it tells you that. That's always my worry with the cable shenanigans - that I'll get some degraded experience and not realize it until it matters.

by izacus 4y ago

quest88 4y ago

I disagree. It's harder to debug why the peripheral is not 100% functional. Moreso for those non-technical folks.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
This. And I think there's also the software that's involved in all this. At work, I have an HP laptop with Thunderbolt 4, DP alt-mode, etc. I use an external screen and kb/mouse, so I have an HP USB-C G5 dock. It has a USB-C connector, only supports up to USB 3, but that's fine. It supports DP 1.4 and HDMI 2.0. Its cable is fixed, so I'd expect it to be "up to standard". Also, HP Dock, HP laptop, Windows 11 as recommended by HP, you'd expect all this to just work, right? Wrong! If I want 4k@60Hz on the monitor, I have to do a stupid dance of plugging the monitor on HDMI in addition to DP (doesn't work if DP isn't plugged in), unplug de DP, replug the DP, unplug the HDMI. It then works as expected. Colors are weird on HDMI (doesn't do 4:4:4 coding for some reason) so I insist on a DP connection. Once this setup gets going, it will usually survive a sleep / wake cycle (if the PC wakes up, but that's a different story). However, there's a pretty good chance the image will be partially messed up: most often crazy colors and moving lines, sometimes the image will be OK, only somewhat misaligned (think old LCDs with VGA connectors before "auto-adjusting" them) and the monitor will complain of frequency mismatch or something. If I switch inputs on the monitor, it will come back OK. It will not survive a reboot (have to do the dance again). The BIOS has a special "use high definition" entry, that warns against reducing the USB bandwidth. Didn't make a difference. At home, I have an HP desktop with Thunderbolt 3, DP out, etc. I have a USB-C monitor which works fine up until the Windows login screen when it goes blank (no signal). Windows install worked fine. It works if I force the resolution to less than 4k@60Hz. I only got to see the Windows desktop once with this. Didn't survive a reboot and never worked again. None of this happens with Linux/X11, everything works as expected on the same hardware. I fancy myself fairly technical, but I have to admit I have no idea what's going on. Not even where to start looking for issues. I've tried updating the BIOS/firmware across all devices, no luck.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It’s always the cable. Except when it’s not, then it’s another cable. What happens is Windows tries to help - and so switched out of the mode you wanted because something in the cable or negotiation indicated it wouldn’t work. Linux often doesn’t do that and just blindly runs ahead - and so if the monitor becomes working a moment later - it works. Utilities for Mac and windows can sometimes force what mode it uses.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    This could possibly explain the issue with the USB-C monitor, but then why would this work after the HDMI circus? The hardware and OS clearly are capable of doing this, and no cable is replaced in the process. I also don't move them around during the reboot.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      I’d suspect crappy monitor software that changes what it reports on ALL interfaces when it detects an HDMI cable.
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        And yet, the same DP connector on the same monitor with the same cable works fine when plugged into a DP connector on another computer (on Windows).
- paulmd 4y ago
  See my comment elsewhere but usb-c to hdmi or thunderbolt to hdmi is always an active conversion, and those converter chips are (in my experience) pretty shitty around edge cases like sleeping. Those problems I’m referencing only show up when the laptop comes back from sleep. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32714107 Wouldn’t be surprising at all to me if it was just down to the active converter not handling it right, even on a fancy expensive dock. There are only so many active converter chips on the market after all and they’re oriented towards cost not correctness. And I mean, mine sorta works after sleep… like 3/4 or 7/8 times. And if it were an active cable that you were plugging and unplugging every time, that works 100%. You only notice the flaw because it’s a dock, and that’s not really what the converter was designed for.
bombcar 4y ago
It reminds me of people buying nice VGA LED monitors and running them at non native resolutions. I used to be quite well known as the “computer guy” because I would set people to native resolution.
izacus 4y ago
It's the exact same situation like having to debug a broken HDMI or DP cable. You don't get any more info, you just have less flexibility and more crap to lug around.
wonnage 4y ago
Things are just insanely complicated now but I don't blame the connector. I had the un-fun experience of trying to get 4k 60hz working on my Mac recently. Turns out I had to toggle a setting on my monitor to reserve more bandwidth for display resolution instead of for USB devices. This supposedly isn't a problem if the Mac supported display stream compression, and it's supposed to, but apparently that broke as part of some Big Sur update. USB has always had software bugs but the explosion of optional features and unexpected hardware combinations has made it feel like Bluetooth; connecting is the easy part, but have fun negotiating all the different profiles and making sure both ends of the connection support the same things.

colordrops 4y ago

Naw, I'd rather it not work than work at lower refresh rate or resolution.

izacus 4y ago
You can always then throw the cable in the garbage and simulate the old situation of not having anything.
- colordrops 4y ago
  That's precisely what I do, after having lost a few hours messing with graphics drivers and kernel params before I realize it was the cable. Would have rather had my time back.

theshrike79 4y ago

It's really fun trying to debug that crap. For example: My Macbook Pro has a 87 watt USB-C power supply. My Steam Deck charges using USB-C. When I connect the two, the Deck tells me it's not charging at full power. While being connected to a 2x more powerful power supply than it's official one. Without consulting Google, can any regular person figure out what is the issue? (SPOILER: Steam Deck only charges using 15V, the Apple PSU supplies 9V and 20V, no 15V)

rwiggins 4y ago
I suppose at least it tells you that. That's always my worry with the cable shenanigans - that I'll get some degraded experience and not realize it until it matters.