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> There is also a false equivalent on your part. The livestream (which by the way was shared by the Kiwifarms owner) was spread on Facebook by many users. Fac

> There is also a false equivalent on your part. The livestream (which by the way was shared by the Kiwifarms owner) was spread on Facebook by many users. Facebook deployed a fingerprinting solution to identify this video being reposted. Not just taking it down once, but taking down all submissions. Noone expects that from Kiwifarms because they don't need it anyways. No matter what they tell you, they don't have that big of a comment stream. It takes less than 30 seconds to find an account with some Nazist symbolism in username or profile picture and they persist for years. Tell me how that adds up please.

towaway15463 4y ago
In most of the world it is not illegal to use nazi symbolism.
- schleck8 4y ago
  I thought this was a moral discussion and not a legal one. What Cloudflare did was legal too.
dmatech 4y ago
Being an edgelord or even a Nazi is totally legal in the USA. So is hosting violent imagery. These things might be against the TOS of major social media sites, but they're absolutely legal. That said, most people won't want to be around people who do this. Death threats are generally not legal, but ones that are obvious hyperbole might be. Natural language processing algorithms might be able to identify death threats automatically, but they struggle with hyperbole and sarcasm. But so do humans.
- schleck8 4y ago
  This has been a moral discussion since the beginning, not a legal one.
  - dmatech 4y ago
    Yes, and people keep saying "amoral" like it's a bad thing. For instance, I want my power company to be amoral in customer selection. I want certainty that my power won't be cut because enough people demand it. And I don't want power cuts to be used as a form of social control [1]. Basically, society works best when people stay in their lanes or are at least allowed to stay in their lanes. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control
worldofmatthew 4y ago
More false equivalency. Facebook allowed the stream to be broadcast directly from the terrorist for 29 minutes. KiwiFarms simply hosted an archive to avoid it being memory holed. Context matters and attempts to avoid acknowledging context to create false equivalency is a big reason why most Twitter and Reddit arguments are so-toxic. Most (almost all in reality) of the Nazi symbolism is from people who are shit-posting and would find the Nazi's rightfully abhorrent.
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  > Most (almost all in reality) of the Nazi symbolism is from people who are shit-posting Many people don’t have the luxury of assuming that people brandishing Nazi symbolism are shit-posting. For quite a few that symbolism represents an existential threat.
Liquix 4y ago
Free speech is free speech and must be protected at all costs, even if 99% of people think an idea is reprehensible. These people aren't going to shrug and walk away because a website goes down, they'll congregate somewhere else. The cycle will repeat. If folks aren't exposed to radical ideologies regularly - if everything they read on a screen is True and Safe - what happens when they stumble across a dark corner of the internet and are exposed for the first time? Censorship erodes our ability to critically evaluate, without actually stamping out the censored topic.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  I’m not pro censorship but you’re making a huge leap saying we need to be regularly exposed to radical ideologies in order to identify radical ideologies? Why would that be true? Frequent exposure to something normalizes that thing, it doesn’t make it stick out and be more identifiable.
  - bobzimuta 4y ago
    The best, recent example I have is Nick Fuentes. I'd only read from journo pieces making vague accusations (referencing other journo pieces) that he's a white nationalist, or seen clips of him trolling CPAC, so I've always been curious what he's actually about. Seeing a mainstream interview with Louis Theroux and debate livestream with Destiny quickly outs him as a white nationalist with an incoherent worldview. If the only way to hear his ideas, directly from his mouth, are on his platform in a dark corner of the internet you're only going to get his one-sided propaganda.
    - krainboltgreene 4y ago
      I love that your conclusion is the only way to determine if someone is a nazi is if you've personally see that nazi platformed. Can't figure it out from the numerous things they've been quoted as saying, they gotta get in front of 5k people first.
      - bobzimuta 4y ago

towaway15463 4y ago

In most of the world it is not illegal to use nazi symbolism.

schleck8 4y ago
I thought this was a moral discussion and not a legal one. What Cloudflare did was legal too.

dmatech 4y ago

Being an edgelord or even a Nazi is totally legal in the USA. So is hosting violent imagery. These things might be against the TOS of major social media sites, but they're absolutely legal. That said, most people won't want to be around people who do this. Death threats are generally not legal, but ones that are obvious hyperbole might be. Natural language processing algorithms might be able to identify death threats automatically, but they struggle with hyperbole and sarcasm. But so do humans.

schleck8 4y ago
This has been a moral discussion since the beginning, not a legal one.
- dmatech 4y ago
  Yes, and people keep saying "amoral" like it's a bad thing. For instance, I want my power company to be amoral in customer selection. I want certainty that my power won't be cut because enough people demand it. And I don't want power cuts to be used as a form of social control [1]. Basically, society works best when people stay in their lanes or are at least allowed to stay in their lanes. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control

worldofmatthew 4y ago

More false equivalency. Facebook allowed the stream to be broadcast directly from the terrorist for 29 minutes. KiwiFarms simply hosted an archive to avoid it being memory holed. Context matters and attempts to avoid acknowledging context to create false equivalency is a big reason why most Twitter and Reddit arguments are so-toxic. Most (almost all in reality) of the Nazi symbolism is from people who are shit-posting and would find the Nazi's rightfully abhorrent.

alphabettsy 4y ago
> Most (almost all in reality) of the Nazi symbolism is from people who are shit-posting Many people don’t have the luxury of assuming that people brandishing Nazi symbolism are shit-posting. For quite a few that symbolism represents an existential threat.

Liquix 4y ago

Free speech is free speech and must be protected at all costs, even if 99% of people think an idea is reprehensible. These people aren't going to shrug and walk away because a website goes down, they'll congregate somewhere else. The cycle will repeat. If folks aren't exposed to radical ideologies regularly - if everything they read on a screen is True and Safe - what happens when they stumble across a dark corner of the internet and are exposed for the first time? Censorship erodes our ability to critically evaluate, without actually stamping out the censored topic.

ethanbond 4y ago
I’m not pro censorship but you’re making a huge leap saying we need to be regularly exposed to radical ideologies in order to identify radical ideologies? Why would that be true? Frequent exposure to something normalizes that thing, it doesn’t make it stick out and be more identifiable.
- bobzimuta 4y ago
  The best, recent example I have is Nick Fuentes. I'd only read from journo pieces making vague accusations (referencing other journo pieces) that he's a white nationalist, or seen clips of him trolling CPAC, so I've always been curious what he's actually about. Seeing a mainstream interview with Louis Theroux and debate livestream with Destiny quickly outs him as a white nationalist with an incoherent worldview. If the only way to hear his ideas, directly from his mouth, are on his platform in a dark corner of the internet you're only going to get his one-sided propaganda.
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    I love that your conclusion is the only way to determine if someone is a nazi is if you've personally see that nazi platformed. Can't figure it out from the numerous things they've been quoted as saying, they gotta get in front of 5k people first.
    - bobzimuta 4y ago