4 ms·

If you don't like what Cloudflare or Facebook are doing, feel free to start your own alternative.

mlyle 4y ago
"Go start your own" is not a great response to someone being concerned about corrosive effects of the concentration of market power -- especially when those concentrations are brokering critical speech and political discourse.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Whoops you started your own, now I see all the methods of payment you use have been shut off by their various vendors. Oh you used crypto? Hope you know every single address that has interacted with a sanctioned address and never accidently accept payment from them...
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Have you ever considered that if nobody wants to touch your content - nobody wants to even consider allowing it over their network - then it might actually be your content that is the problem?
  - mlyle 4y ago
    Have you ever considered that you're straw-manning and not engaging with what I've actually said? I'm not supporting Kiwifarms having a platform. I'm saying speech being effectively squelched by a small number of powerful parties is problematic. If the small party is the government, this is obviously problematic. If Facebook is a huge part of people's discourse, and subtly tilts the playing field in various ways, this is problematic, too. I can insulate myself (mostly) from the effects of Facebook's curation. But there are still profound social costs.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      But free speech is not being "squelched" in any way. Can you explain why you think it is?
      - mlyle 4y ago
        I feel like it is thoroughly explained above and my other counterparts in conversation understand the point. I am also not sure you're conversing in good faith. You're tossing out pithy one-liners that demand greater effort to respond to than to say them. This was also my experience a long time ago when we used to discuss things on IRC (including, I believe, this exact topic).
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Again, there's a difference between your free speech being "squelched", and no-one wanting to entertain your nonsense, and you haven't really explained why you think there isn't.
        mlyle 4y ago
        See danShumway's comment that puts it better than me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712819 Concentrated power in the path of speech or commerce is dangerous, whether it's governmental or private. Many parties deciding independently whether to "entertain my nonsense" is good. One critical party in the path (governmental or commercial) is bad.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Okay, but there is no "concentrated power". You are just as free as anyone else to host KF.
        mlyle 4y ago
        > Okay, but there is no "concentrated power". You are just as free as anyone else to host KF. We're not talking about hosting KF. There's lots of hosts. And Cloudflare was not hosting KF, but instead providing DDoS protection services. But there's approximately 2-3 services that can reject DDoS at high scale. Or maybe slightly more. This is right at the threshold of concern. Here, I think the decision that was made was a good one, but at the same time a very small number of unaccountable parties making this kind of determination is worrying.

"Go start your own" is not a great response to someone being concerned about corrosive effects of the concentration of market power -- especially when those concentrations are brokering critical speech and political discourse.

notch656a 4y ago
Whoops you started your own, now I see all the methods of payment you use have been shut off by their various vendors. Oh you used crypto? Hope you know every single address that has interacted with a sanctioned address and never accidently accept payment from them...
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Have you ever considered that if nobody wants to touch your content - nobody wants to even consider allowing it over their network - then it might actually be your content that is the problem?
- mlyle 4y ago
  Have you ever considered that you're straw-manning and not engaging with what I've actually said? I'm not supporting Kiwifarms having a platform. I'm saying speech being effectively squelched by a small number of powerful parties is problematic. If the small party is the government, this is obviously problematic. If Facebook is a huge part of people's discourse, and subtly tilts the playing field in various ways, this is problematic, too. I can insulate myself (mostly) from the effects of Facebook's curation. But there are still profound social costs.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    But free speech is not being "squelched" in any way. Can you explain why you think it is?
    - mlyle 4y ago
      I feel like it is thoroughly explained above and my other counterparts in conversation understand the point. I am also not sure you're conversing in good faith. You're tossing out pithy one-liners that demand greater effort to respond to than to say them. This was also my experience a long time ago when we used to discuss things on IRC (including, I believe, this exact topic).
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Again, there's a difference between your free speech being "squelched", and no-one wanting to entertain your nonsense, and you haven't really explained why you think there isn't.
        mlyle 4y ago
        See danShumway's comment that puts it better than me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32712819 Concentrated power in the path of speech or commerce is dangerous, whether it's governmental or private. Many parties deciding independently whether to "entertain my nonsense" is good. One critical party in the path (governmental or commercial) is bad.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Okay, but there is no "concentrated power". You are just as free as anyone else to host KF.
        mlyle 4y ago
        > Okay, but there is no "concentrated power". You are just as free as anyone else to host KF. We're not talking about hosting KF. There's lots of hosts. And Cloudflare was not hosting KF, but instead providing DDoS protection services. But there's approximately 2-3 services that can reject DDoS at high scale. Or maybe slightly more. This is right at the threshold of concern. Here, I think the decision that was made was a good one, but at the same time a very small number of unaccountable parties making this kind of determination is worrying.