7 ms·

There seems to be a double standard with who can partake in intimidation campaigns. Before any mention of keffals in Kiwifarms she was running a harassment cam

by ed_voc 4y ago

There seems to be a double standard with who can partake in intimidation campaigns. Before any mention of keffals in Kiwifarms she was running a harassment campaign against Destiny, making false accusations that he was a rapist and rallying their followers to get him de-platformed on all platforms. The worst situation is having one sided intimidation campaigns where trans activists can de-platform users like Destiny but they cannot defend themselves due to either losing remaining platforms or fear of losing their remaining platforms.

dools 4y ago
Making accusations against someone and trying to get them deplatformed is not the same as threatening someone with violence. I know very few details but the moral equivalence you’re drawing in this comment is false.
- Smithalicious 4y ago
  Is it? Attacking someone's livelihood is a very real and impactful form of aggression. Compared threats of violence there's more cases where it's warranted, yes, but I think I would personally rather be on the receiving end of threats of violence than of someone attempting to make me lose my job and become much harder to employ. Of course actual violence is a different case altogether.
  - zamalek 4y ago
    If that's your stance then that's fine. However, the correct approach would have been for Destiny to take legal action, instead of vigilantism. In addition, the prior comments talk about things that may causally limit freedom of speech. Losing your job does not mean losing your voice. When it comes to how FoS is constitutionally defined (across several countries), it is worth learning about "fighting words." Nearly every justice system agrees that any goes, except words that may (not merely will) cause imminent harm. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
    - Banana699 4y ago
      >the correct approach would have been for Destiny to take legal action, instead of vigilantism. So the correct response to percieved harrassment is indeed taking legal action, and not, say, mobilizing mobs to retaliate back ? Mmm, I wonder who needs to hear that.
      - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
        It's quite frightening how people cannot piece together the logic like this when it comes to situations involving transgenderism. You're obviously correct here, and I'm still trying to figure out how the above poster didn't realize what they were saying as they were saying it.
        zamalek 4y ago
        What's more frightening is how many people can't piece together that every situation is not a dichotomy.
  - galactus 4y ago
    As far as I understand, the people on kiwifarms _also_ try to get their targets fired by enailing their employees and claiming their targets are pedophiles or something like that.
    - Banana699 4y ago
      - RavingGoat 4y ago
        Bullshit. Half the stuff they have is fake or comes from hacked accounts. Get real.
        Banana699 4y ago
        Banana699 4y ago
- clove 4y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, the threat of violence came from someone USING the KF platform, not KF itself. If you want to make equivalences, deplatforming Destiny means removing him FROM a platform, and thus the person making threats should have been banned from KF to result an an equivalence. Yet the action taken was to actually remove the entire platform. Am I wrong here?
  - dools 4y ago
    I was responding to this comment: “There seems to be a double standard with who can partake in intimidation campaigns.”
  - ummonk 4y ago
    I'm unfamiliar with KF but if a platform can't or won't do a good enough job of moderating its content and users, then transitively the platform itself needs to be blocked.
    - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
      ...and who makes this decision? What's the measurement of doing a "good enough job?"
- grapeskin 4y ago
  Publicly calling someone a rapist can very well get someone injured or killed. Unless you’re a victim whose pleas are being completely ignored by the legal system, it’s not justifiable and not something that should be taken as anything but a threat to someone’s life. I have no clue who these people are or what the situation is, but I’ve seen more than enough angry mobs appear out of nowhere after an accusation of a crime.
  - dools 4y ago
    “I have no clue who these people are or what the situation is, but I’ve seen more than enough angry mobs appear out of nowhere after an accusation of a crime.” What are some specific examples of this phenomenon you’re referring to?
    - fennecfoxy 4y ago
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44856910 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44856910 "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." Humans are inherently tribal. If enough of us get together in a group, we are capable of terrible things - and the justification of them.
      - dools 4y ago
        Violent mobs organised through private channels by men seems to be more similar to what KiwiFarms are doing than what they are reacting to. This seems like a fundamentally different scenario than the OP I was responding to, glad I asked for specifics ;)
- sam36 4y ago
  This is the post the got the site shut down: https://i.imgur.com/S1z3Po2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/S1z3Po2.jpg And btw, kiwifarms had to get their own ip block because no one would host them any more that was like 5+ years ago or something. So cloudflare never really provided any service to the site as their IPs were public knowledge and could be ddos'd (hence why it is always going down)
  - HereIGoAgain 4y ago
    A post deleted as soon as a mod saw it (~30 minutes) with an account ban, by an account with virtually no posting history before this drama started.... hmmm
    - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
      I also have no idea why this website is responsible for a random post by a user, when the post is apparently against the stated rules of the forum? Are there not death threats posted on Twitter and Facebook all the time?
      - throwaway742 4y ago
        Because it is just a pretext and not an actual reason.
- Banana699 4y ago
cloutchaser 4y ago
As far as I know both the people who doxxed kavanagh and jk Rowling are still happily posting on twitter. Oh and the journalist who threatened those schoolboys with violence. Of course those aren’t real threats of violence apparently. Only the right threatens actual violence. The left only does rhetoric. /s
- RavingGoat 4y ago
  Last I checked both Kavanaugh and Rowling have shit loads of security. I can't say the same for a random trans person, can you???
  - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
    Ah yes, because having security makes it okay.
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  Those people should also be banned from twitter. Just because some folks aren't banned when they should be doesn't mean we should stop banning everyone. This isn't a left vs right thing. It's a "we shouldn't let people bring harm to other people online" thing. It seems you're the one making it left vs right.
  - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
    ...but they aren't banned from Twitter: that's the point. "Should" is different from "are" -- and "should" doesn't mean a whole bunch.
trasz 4y ago
>making false accusations that he was a rapist This is a lie. What happened is Destiny had a tirade about how to him stealthing isn’t rape, and Keffals pointed it out. Then KF went wild, as seen above.
- RunSet 4y ago
  For people who don't like to hide an essay's worth of scum behind a two-syllable word, "stealthing" is used above to describe putting on a condom to obtain consent and then discreetly removing the condom after consent is obtained.
- ed_voc 4y ago
  No Keffals said that destiny is a rapist https://streamable.com/ti9rgx https://streamable.com/ti9rgx
  - sophacles 4y ago
    Good point, stealthing is in fact rape.
    - ummonk 4y ago
      Has Destiny admitted to stealthing, or merely given his own opinion on whether or not stealthing is rape?
      - sophacles 4y ago
        What does that have to do with my statement agreeing that stealthing is in fact rape?
    - stale2002 4y ago
      At no point has he said that he stealthed anybody, and nobody has made an accusations against him for that. Your post is dangerous misinformation.
      - 4y ago
gcr 4y ago
To this day Kiwifarms still hosts the Christchurch video. They posted the AU Government’s takedown order along with their response: “were a US company,” refusing to remove it. You can still find it by searching for “AU Government Class 1 Security Kiwifarms” They clearly want to keep this content up.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Yes and thank god they do. I watched it several times so I could better understand what happened in this scenario and what an evil person may do if I find myself unarmed with a pile of people in a confined space like this. I learned that hiding in the corner resulted in piles of people simply ending up getting shot, and that immediately exiting out through windows and other less expected exit points greatly aided survivors. This is counter to idiotic advice my teachers gave me, like hiding under chairs and desks, which the shooter in Uvalde took advantage of to massacre virtually all the children in their room. After watching the videos I came up with a plan as to what to do if an evil person ever enters close quarters building and I have no way to fight back. Only by watching such a gruesome video with such explicit results did it really drive home what the stakes are. I truly believe Kiwifarms may save lives by keeping up this video.
  - drekk 4y ago
    It's amazing the degree to which people are fine treating their fellow humans as means towards an end. Even unarmed victims of a massacre. We should put a Netflix Original series out that is curated gore videos with commentary from former cops, military, mercenaries, etc. about surviving horrific situations unarmed. Who cares about the families of the victims or the survivors?
    - Banana699 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - notch656a 4y ago
        I had no idea what Kiwifarms was until Christchurch. The mainstream platforms basically invite people to go to platforms concentrated in more extreme speech by deplatforming legal but controversial speech. IMO it is more beneficial to have mainstream platforms with all manners of free speech than to concentrate extreme speech in certain locations where it becomes normalized without the benefit of mixing in more mainstream opinions. I would not be surprised to find out censorship and moderation results in increased radicalization, etc by concentrating controversial ideas in these 'extreme' platforms rather than mixing them with more moderate ideas.

by ed_voc 4y ago

dools 4y ago

Making accusations against someone and trying to get them deplatformed is not the same as threatening someone with violence. I know very few details but the moral equivalence you’re drawing in this comment is false.

Smithalicious 4y ago
Is it? Attacking someone's livelihood is a very real and impactful form of aggression. Compared threats of violence there's more cases where it's warranted, yes, but I think I would personally rather be on the receiving end of threats of violence than of someone attempting to make me lose my job and become much harder to employ. Of course actual violence is a different case altogether.
- zamalek 4y ago
  If that's your stance then that's fine. However, the correct approach would have been for Destiny to take legal action, instead of vigilantism. In addition, the prior comments talk about things that may causally limit freedom of speech. Losing your job does not mean losing your voice. When it comes to how FoS is constitutionally defined (across several countries), it is worth learning about "fighting words." Nearly every justice system agrees that any goes, except words that may (not merely will) cause imminent harm. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
  - Banana699 4y ago
    >the correct approach would have been for Destiny to take legal action, instead of vigilantism. So the correct response to percieved harrassment is indeed taking legal action, and not, say, mobilizing mobs to retaliate back ? Mmm, I wonder who needs to hear that.
    - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
      It's quite frightening how people cannot piece together the logic like this when it comes to situations involving transgenderism. You're obviously correct here, and I'm still trying to figure out how the above poster didn't realize what they were saying as they were saying it.
      - zamalek 4y ago
        What's more frightening is how many people can't piece together that every situation is not a dichotomy.
- galactus 4y ago
  As far as I understand, the people on kiwifarms _also_ try to get their targets fired by enailing their employees and claiming their targets are pedophiles or something like that.
  - Banana699 4y ago
    - RavingGoat 4y ago
      Bullshit. Half the stuff they have is fake or comes from hacked accounts. Get real.
      - Banana699 4y ago
      - Banana699 4y ago
clove 4y ago
If I'm not mistaken, the threat of violence came from someone USING the KF platform, not KF itself. If you want to make equivalences, deplatforming Destiny means removing him FROM a platform, and thus the person making threats should have been banned from KF to result an an equivalence. Yet the action taken was to actually remove the entire platform. Am I wrong here?
- dools 4y ago
  I was responding to this comment: “There seems to be a double standard with who can partake in intimidation campaigns.”
- ummonk 4y ago
  I'm unfamiliar with KF but if a platform can't or won't do a good enough job of moderating its content and users, then transitively the platform itself needs to be blocked.
  - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
    ...and who makes this decision? What's the measurement of doing a "good enough job?"
grapeskin 4y ago
Publicly calling someone a rapist can very well get someone injured or killed. Unless you’re a victim whose pleas are being completely ignored by the legal system, it’s not justifiable and not something that should be taken as anything but a threat to someone’s life. I have no clue who these people are or what the situation is, but I’ve seen more than enough angry mobs appear out of nowhere after an accusation of a crime.
- dools 4y ago
  “I have no clue who these people are or what the situation is, but I’ve seen more than enough angry mobs appear out of nowhere after an accusation of a crime.” What are some specific examples of this phenomenon you’re referring to?
  - fennecfoxy 4y ago
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44856910 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44856910 "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." Humans are inherently tribal. If enough of us get together in a group, we are capable of terrible things - and the justification of them.
    - dools 4y ago
      Violent mobs organised through private channels by men seems to be more similar to what KiwiFarms are doing than what they are reacting to. This seems like a fundamentally different scenario than the OP I was responding to, glad I asked for specifics ;)
sam36 4y ago
This is the post the got the site shut down: https://i.imgur.com/S1z3Po2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/S1z3Po2.jpg And btw, kiwifarms had to get their own ip block because no one would host them any more that was like 5+ years ago or something. So cloudflare never really provided any service to the site as their IPs were public knowledge and could be ddos'd (hence why it is always going down)
- HereIGoAgain 4y ago
  A post deleted as soon as a mod saw it (~30 minutes) with an account ban, by an account with virtually no posting history before this drama started.... hmmm
  - TobyTheDog123 4y ago
    I also have no idea why this website is responsible for a random post by a user, when the post is apparently against the stated rules of the forum? Are there not death threats posted on Twitter and Facebook all the time?
    - throwaway742 4y ago
      Because it is just a pretext and not an actual reason.
Banana699 4y ago

cloutchaser 4y ago

As far as I know both the people who doxxed kavanagh and jk Rowling are still happily posting on twitter. Oh and the journalist who threatened those schoolboys with violence. Of course those aren’t real threats of violence apparently. Only the right threatens actual violence. The left only does rhetoric. /s

RavingGoat 4y ago
Last I checked both Kavanaugh and Rowling have shit loads of security. I can't say the same for a random trans person, can you???
- TobyTheDog123 4y ago
  Ah yes, because having security makes it okay.
ryan_lane 4y ago
Those people should also be banned from twitter. Just because some folks aren't banned when they should be doesn't mean we should stop banning everyone. This isn't a left vs right thing. It's a "we shouldn't let people bring harm to other people online" thing. It seems you're the one making it left vs right.
- TobyTheDog123 4y ago
  ...but they aren't banned from Twitter: that's the point. "Should" is different from "are" -- and "should" doesn't mean a whole bunch.

trasz 4y ago

>making false accusations that he was a rapist This is a lie. What happened is Destiny had a tirade about how to him stealthing isn’t rape, and Keffals pointed it out. Then KF went wild, as seen above.

RunSet 4y ago
For people who don't like to hide an essay's worth of scum behind a two-syllable word, "stealthing" is used above to describe putting on a condom to obtain consent and then discreetly removing the condom after consent is obtained.
ed_voc 4y ago
No Keffals said that destiny is a rapist https://streamable.com/ti9rgx https://streamable.com/ti9rgx
- sophacles 4y ago
  Good point, stealthing is in fact rape.
  - ummonk 4y ago
    Has Destiny admitted to stealthing, or merely given his own opinion on whether or not stealthing is rape?
    - sophacles 4y ago
      What does that have to do with my statement agreeing that stealthing is in fact rape?
  - stale2002 4y ago
    At no point has he said that he stealthed anybody, and nobody has made an accusations against him for that. Your post is dangerous misinformation.
    - 4y ago

gcr 4y ago

To this day Kiwifarms still hosts the Christchurch video. They posted the AU Government’s takedown order along with their response: “were a US company,” refusing to remove it. You can still find it by searching for “AU Government Class 1 Security Kiwifarms” They clearly want to keep this content up.

notch656a 4y ago
Yes and thank god they do. I watched it several times so I could better understand what happened in this scenario and what an evil person may do if I find myself unarmed with a pile of people in a confined space like this. I learned that hiding in the corner resulted in piles of people simply ending up getting shot, and that immediately exiting out through windows and other less expected exit points greatly aided survivors. This is counter to idiotic advice my teachers gave me, like hiding under chairs and desks, which the shooter in Uvalde took advantage of to massacre virtually all the children in their room. After watching the videos I came up with a plan as to what to do if an evil person ever enters close quarters building and I have no way to fight back. Only by watching such a gruesome video with such explicit results did it really drive home what the stakes are. I truly believe Kiwifarms may save lives by keeping up this video.
- drekk 4y ago
  It's amazing the degree to which people are fine treating their fellow humans as means towards an end. Even unarmed victims of a massacre. We should put a Netflix Original series out that is curated gore videos with commentary from former cops, military, mercenaries, etc. about surviving horrific situations unarmed. Who cares about the families of the victims or the survivors?
  - Banana699 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I had no idea what Kiwifarms was until Christchurch. The mainstream platforms basically invite people to go to platforms concentrated in more extreme speech by deplatforming legal but controversial speech. IMO it is more beneficial to have mainstream platforms with all manners of free speech than to concentrate extreme speech in certain locations where it becomes normalized without the benefit of mixing in more mainstream opinions. I would not be surprised to find out censorship and moderation results in increased radicalization, etc by concentrating controversial ideas in these 'extreme' platforms rather than mixing them with more moderate ideas.