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Eh, there's nothing wrong with banning both. A pluralistic world has no room for the kind of toxic, offensive material that comes out of these antisocial (asoci

by yew 4y ago

Eh, there's nothing wrong with banning both. A pluralistic world has no room for the kind of toxic, offensive material that comes out of these antisocial (asocial?) spaces. Voltaire was simply wrong about what an enlightened society looks like. It's basic paradox of tolerance stuff. Some things shouldn't exist anywhere.

Dalewyn 4y ago
Two things: * Free Speech exists to protect and guarantee disagreeable speech, because guess what: Nobody's going to censor speech they like or agree with; agreeable speech by its very nature does not need Free Speech protections. * You have no Right to Not Be Offended, such a right does not exist period. Grow some skin and git gud.
- imadierich 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
naasking 4y ago
> It's basic paradox of tolerance stuff. I don't think you've actually read what Popper said about the paradox of tolerance. For your education: > If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.
- RunSet 4y ago
  > as long as we can counter them by rational argument "You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into."
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Yes, you can always say that this time, Popper's caveat does not apply, because the opponents are too far gone. Perhaps we should stop treating Popper or anyone else as an oracle of truths. He was a smart man, you can disagree with him nevertheless - in both directions.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > "You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into." I disagree 100%, and the fact that atheism is steadily growing, even among formerly devout Christians, the admirable success of Daryl Davis convincing KKK members to renounce their own hate, and the numerous examples of collaboration for a common cause between groups that should hate each other, like the KKK and the black Panthers, all demonstrate that this claim is flat out wrong. Instead, what your cute catchphrase typically represents is an excuse to justify your own hate for an outgroup. Often understandably borne of frustration from impatience to learn about or inability to understand the motivations or experiences of an outgroup, and a subsequent assignment of negative qualities to them, because obviously you're not the problem (the "bias blind spot").
- yew 4y ago
  It's not my job to educate you about why you're wrong, but only to raise my voice as part of the chorus saying that you are. Hate and your sad support for it will always be met with refusal. You are finished.
  - naasking 4y ago
    Not your job perhaps, but arguably your duty as a member of a democratic society where social change must happen by persuasion, since the legitimacy of government follows from the consent of the governed.
    - yew 4y ago
      > Atheism is steadily growing. > The legitimacy of government follows from the consent of the governed. Here, your neckbeard is showing.
      - naasking 4y ago
        Insults are the last refuge of those who have lost the argument. Sadly, I guess you just don't believe in the UN's declaration of human rights or the principles behind the US's declaration of independence.
        yew 4y ago
        There's no argument here. Just reactionary noises pretending to be about "human rights."
bradleyjg 4y ago
America’s Fourth Great Awakening marches on. Hopefully it’s a short one, like the First.
pessimizer 4y ago
> A pluralistic world has no room A pluralistic world that doesn't have room is not pluralistic.
robertlagrant 4y ago
Pretty sure Voltaire's not wanting a country with endless and shifting politeness laws, prone to giving government and tech power over speech, was certainly not wrong.
inglor_cz 4y ago
There are plenty of worlds that have no room for heresy, but they tend not to be pluralistic de facto. Much like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither democratic nor people's, despite its name.

by yew 4y ago

Dalewyn 4y ago

Two things: * Free Speech exists to protect and guarantee disagreeable speech, because guess what: Nobody's going to censor speech they like or agree with; agreeable speech by its very nature does not need Free Speech protections. * You have no Right to Not Be Offended, such a right does not exist period. Grow some skin and git gud.

imadierich 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

naasking 4y ago

> It's basic paradox of tolerance stuff. I don't think you've actually read what Popper said about the paradox of tolerance. For your education: > If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

RunSet 4y ago
> as long as we can counter them by rational argument "You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into."
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Yes, you can always say that this time, Popper's caveat does not apply, because the opponents are too far gone. Perhaps we should stop treating Popper or anyone else as an oracle of truths. He was a smart man, you can disagree with him nevertheless - in both directions.
- naasking 4y ago
  > "You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into." I disagree 100%, and the fact that atheism is steadily growing, even among formerly devout Christians, the admirable success of Daryl Davis convincing KKK members to renounce their own hate, and the numerous examples of collaboration for a common cause between groups that should hate each other, like the KKK and the black Panthers, all demonstrate that this claim is flat out wrong. Instead, what your cute catchphrase typically represents is an excuse to justify your own hate for an outgroup. Often understandably borne of frustration from impatience to learn about or inability to understand the motivations or experiences of an outgroup, and a subsequent assignment of negative qualities to them, because obviously you're not the problem (the "bias blind spot").
yew 4y ago
It's not my job to educate you about why you're wrong, but only to raise my voice as part of the chorus saying that you are. Hate and your sad support for it will always be met with refusal. You are finished.
- naasking 4y ago
  Not your job perhaps, but arguably your duty as a member of a democratic society where social change must happen by persuasion, since the legitimacy of government follows from the consent of the governed.
  - yew 4y ago
    > Atheism is steadily growing. > The legitimacy of government follows from the consent of the governed. Here, your neckbeard is showing.
    - naasking 4y ago
      Insults are the last refuge of those who have lost the argument. Sadly, I guess you just don't believe in the UN's declaration of human rights or the principles behind the US's declaration of independence.
      - yew 4y ago
        There's no argument here. Just reactionary noises pretending to be about "human rights."

bradleyjg 4y ago

America’s Fourth Great Awakening marches on. Hopefully it’s a short one, like the First.

pessimizer 4y ago

> A pluralistic world has no room A pluralistic world that doesn't have room is not pluralistic.

robertlagrant 4y ago

Pretty sure Voltaire's not wanting a country with endless and shifting politeness laws, prone to giving government and tech power over speech, was certainly not wrong.

inglor_cz 4y ago

There are plenty of worlds that have no room for heresy, but they tend not to be pluralistic de facto. Much like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither democratic nor people's, despite its name.