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I think the difference is that it's a lot easier to opt out of online tracking. You can turn on private browsing mode. You can decide not to shop online. With

I think the difference is that it's a lot easier to opt out of online tracking. You can turn on private browsing mode. You can decide not to shop online. With this kind of tracking, there's much less that you can do, especially if more essential shops like grocery stores start to implement it. Sure, you can turn your phone off, but I at least feel like merchants should be polite enough not to track my every movement without my explicit permission.

tghw 15y ago
You're still making a distinction between online and the physical world, which is that for websites, you do something extra to opt out, whereas in the physical world you want to give explicit permission before they track you. Note that it's very easy to opt out of this: turn the phone off. You click one button. And arguably it's more effective than private browsing mode, which still leaks a lot of information about you.
- dalke 15y ago
  The physical world is quite different. If I have my phone with me, and on, then I can do things which I might not otherwise do. If my wife were expecting and nearly due, or my client might call, then I could shop and still be available if needed. This adds another factor - how much do I want to be tracked? For web sites I can (and do!) have different browsers for different tasks. I use Firefox for Facebook, and regularly write FB cookies on Safari. But in the physical world of this example, I can't work around things by getting two mobile phones.
  - tghw 15y ago
    The analogy carries: there are things you can't do or are more tedious when you're opting out. You have to whitelist things for FlashBlock and AdBlock, your preferences aren't saved in private mode, etc. Moreover, I can still get your IP address and correlate your browser fingerprint, with reasonable confidence, to other visits you've made while using your private browser. Likewise, you could easily have a cash-prepaid phone you use for times you don't want to be tracked and use Google Voice to forward calls to it. The point is, you really can't opt out of tracking on the internet as easily as you're suggesting.
    - dalke 15y ago
      I'm arguing that it isn't a strong analogy, not that it isn't an invalid analogy. Fundamentally, people expect to be able to reach me by phone, and there are times when I want to be reached. I can even tell me phone to only allow a short list of numbers to make my phone ring. On the other hand, going to a web site means I want something from them, and their analytics are part of what they take as compensation. You argue, I believe, that "going to the mall" becomes similar to "going to a web site." By picking up my prescription at the mall pharmacy, I implicitly grant the mall and (I presume) other stores in the mall knowledge about where I go. I suppose the same would apply if my hypothetical daughter went to a Planned Parenthood office in a shopping center. And in some sense, you are right. They already track us, with cameras, with staff, and even with consultant anthropologists. The issues are: how much tracking is appropriate ("retail vs. wholesale surveillance" as Schneier terms it). What are the social tradeoffs, especially when there might be no real alternative to using one of the stores in the mall. (And why do so many stores ban photography while asserting the right to photograph us?) But they don't track us with the devices we use to contact others, who have nothing to do with the store. That would be (to use yet another analogy) like a web site asking you to install a plug-in "for great discounts!!!" but which also tracks all others sites you visit? (Presume that that tracking is mentioned in the fine print.) In your analogy, is "the mall" really like "a web site" or like a "web hosting company"? I go to a mall to visit stores, and don't care so much about the mall itself. So "the mall" would be the "web hosting company", and the individual stores correspond to a web site? As someone who has a hosted web site, I would be uncomfortable if my hosting company started doing per-person/per-page traffic analysis other than what I've set up for my own use, and would really not like it if they shared that information with other web sites also hosted by the same company. Of course, some hosting sites might do this, but in the physical world it's harder for a store to leave the mall if it feels like the mall is doing the wrong thing. So while you can make the analogy, it doesn't feel like a strong one. Why not just argue this case without analogies?
- kellishaver 15y ago
  > Note that it's very easy to opt out of this: turn the phone off. You click one button. I agree with you on the first part, and I really see this as no different and no worse than online visitor tracking. It's a trivial thing to worry about and I don't think people should be concerned over it. That said, though, for the folks that are, it's not always that easy to just turn off the phone. Sure, most people have their cell phones on as a convenience and it wouldn't hurt them a bit to turn it off for a few minutes while in the store, but if you have the phone on because your kids are home alone, or your ailing parent may need you at any moment, etc. it becomes much more problematic. So, in this case, while the opt-out option is simple and trivial for most people, it's practically outright unavailable, or at least perceived as unavailable, to a particular segment of the customers. Even in those instances, the cell phone is often as much or more about peace of mind than actual emergency, but I'd argue that's just as valid a reason to keep the phone on for someone in those situations.
- seanp2k2 15y ago
  It's very easy to avoid the repository effects of pepper spray, just hold your breath. I don't understand why all these people with asthma are making such a fuss over this.
watty 15y ago
No, you can't opt out of online tracking any easier. Private browsing mode doesn't hide your IP address. Plus you've got companies like Facebook that can (or try) to track your activity outside of their website. Ever use public internet? Someone may be sniffing your traffic to watch exactly where you're going. Also you're "you can decide not to shop online" applies to the mall too. Richmond has several high quality malls in the area.
- seanp2k2 15y ago
  >"No, you can't opt out of online tracking any easier" Not true. 1.) Tor 2.) http://priv3.icsi.berkeley.edu/ http://priv3.icsi.berkeley.edu/ 3.) Public WiFi + HTTPS Everywhere + private browsing mode 4.) AdBlock+ Most combinations of these can thwart tracking.

tghw 15y ago

You're still making a distinction between online and the physical world, which is that for websites, you do something extra to opt out, whereas in the physical world you want to give explicit permission before they track you. Note that it's very easy to opt out of this: turn the phone off. You click one button. And arguably it's more effective than private browsing mode, which still leaks a lot of information about you.

dalke 15y ago
The physical world is quite different. If I have my phone with me, and on, then I can do things which I might not otherwise do. If my wife were expecting and nearly due, or my client might call, then I could shop and still be available if needed. This adds another factor - how much do I want to be tracked? For web sites I can (and do!) have different browsers for different tasks. I use Firefox for Facebook, and regularly write FB cookies on Safari. But in the physical world of this example, I can't work around things by getting two mobile phones.
- tghw 15y ago
  The analogy carries: there are things you can't do or are more tedious when you're opting out. You have to whitelist things for FlashBlock and AdBlock, your preferences aren't saved in private mode, etc. Moreover, I can still get your IP address and correlate your browser fingerprint, with reasonable confidence, to other visits you've made while using your private browser. Likewise, you could easily have a cash-prepaid phone you use for times you don't want to be tracked and use Google Voice to forward calls to it. The point is, you really can't opt out of tracking on the internet as easily as you're suggesting.
  - dalke 15y ago
    I'm arguing that it isn't a strong analogy, not that it isn't an invalid analogy. Fundamentally, people expect to be able to reach me by phone, and there are times when I want to be reached. I can even tell me phone to only allow a short list of numbers to make my phone ring. On the other hand, going to a web site means I want something from them, and their analytics are part of what they take as compensation. You argue, I believe, that "going to the mall" becomes similar to "going to a web site." By picking up my prescription at the mall pharmacy, I implicitly grant the mall and (I presume) other stores in the mall knowledge about where I go. I suppose the same would apply if my hypothetical daughter went to a Planned Parenthood office in a shopping center. And in some sense, you are right. They already track us, with cameras, with staff, and even with consultant anthropologists. The issues are: how much tracking is appropriate ("retail vs. wholesale surveillance" as Schneier terms it). What are the social tradeoffs, especially when there might be no real alternative to using one of the stores in the mall. (And why do so many stores ban photography while asserting the right to photograph us?) But they don't track us with the devices we use to contact others, who have nothing to do with the store. That would be (to use yet another analogy) like a web site asking you to install a plug-in "for great discounts!!!" but which also tracks all others sites you visit? (Presume that that tracking is mentioned in the fine print.) In your analogy, is "the mall" really like "a web site" or like a "web hosting company"? I go to a mall to visit stores, and don't care so much about the mall itself. So "the mall" would be the "web hosting company", and the individual stores correspond to a web site? As someone who has a hosted web site, I would be uncomfortable if my hosting company started doing per-person/per-page traffic analysis other than what I've set up for my own use, and would really not like it if they shared that information with other web sites also hosted by the same company. Of course, some hosting sites might do this, but in the physical world it's harder for a store to leave the mall if it feels like the mall is doing the wrong thing. So while you can make the analogy, it doesn't feel like a strong one. Why not just argue this case without analogies?
kellishaver 15y ago
> Note that it's very easy to opt out of this: turn the phone off. You click one button. I agree with you on the first part, and I really see this as no different and no worse than online visitor tracking. It's a trivial thing to worry about and I don't think people should be concerned over it. That said, though, for the folks that are, it's not always that easy to just turn off the phone. Sure, most people have their cell phones on as a convenience and it wouldn't hurt them a bit to turn it off for a few minutes while in the store, but if you have the phone on because your kids are home alone, or your ailing parent may need you at any moment, etc. it becomes much more problematic. So, in this case, while the opt-out option is simple and trivial for most people, it's practically outright unavailable, or at least perceived as unavailable, to a particular segment of the customers. Even in those instances, the cell phone is often as much or more about peace of mind than actual emergency, but I'd argue that's just as valid a reason to keep the phone on for someone in those situations.
seanp2k2 15y ago
It's very easy to avoid the repository effects of pepper spray, just hold your breath. I don't understand why all these people with asthma are making such a fuss over this.

watty 15y ago

No, you can't opt out of online tracking any easier. Private browsing mode doesn't hide your IP address. Plus you've got companies like Facebook that can (or try) to track your activity outside of their website. Ever use public internet? Someone may be sniffing your traffic to watch exactly where you're going. Also you're "you can decide not to shop online" applies to the mall too. Richmond has several high quality malls in the area.

seanp2k2 15y ago
>"No, you can't opt out of online tracking any easier" Not true. 1.) Tor 2.) http://priv3.icsi.berkeley.edu/ http://priv3.icsi.berkeley.edu/ 3.) Public WiFi + HTTPS Everywhere + private browsing mode 4.) AdBlock+ Most combinations of these can thwart tracking.