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"But getting upset and starting off the chat with a real person in a bad mood or tone," They didn't say that. They never said they took it out on the employee.

"But getting upset and starting off the chat with a real person in a bad mood or tone," They didn't say that. They never said they took it out on the employee. They said that the system caused the customer to be less happy than they could have been. Perfectly legit complaint, and a failure on the part of the people who set up the system. That's actually why they came HERE to ask. That is something they have control over.

gregjor 4y ago
> Its aggravating and sets the wrong tone for my support call. One can read that in different ways. When I’m aggravated by the time I get through to a person I may communicate that by my tone. Having worked on the receiving end of support calls I know that’s common. Who else can they vent on?
- robbrown451 4y ago
  And they have a right to be aggravated. You're talking about something else, their outward reaction, which you are making assumptions about. I'd hope every user interface designer (and yes this is user interface design) also gets aggravated by bad design. If all you do is make excuses for bad design, it's a good bet your designs suck.
  - gregjor 4y ago
    I made no excuses. I did offer some possible explanations in a different comment thread. I didn’t go so far as to say anyone’s work sucked. I don’t let myself get aggravated over things I can’t control or that likely have causes other than malice or someone sucking at design. I don’t take out my frustrations on customer support people. Not worth it, no point.
    - robbrown451 4y ago
      Again, no one took out their frustrations on customer support, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that. They came to HN and voiced them.
      - gregjor 4y ago
        You don’t know that. We just interpret the original complaint differently. If someone says their frustration with a phone tree “sets the tone” that implies something about the following conversation. A “tone” doesn’t mean anything without a conversation. Complaining on HN will not get any closer to changing the actual problem. I offered possible explanations elsewhere — multiple vendors, incompatible systems, outsourcing, deliberate friction to reduce human call volume, anti-fraud. Sheer incompetence or even malice present possible explanations too. I stand by my original answer: Things don’t necessarily work the way we think they should, that’s simply a fact, so there’s no point letting yourself get aggravated about those things.
        robbrown451 4y ago
        I hope you don't design things that other people use, because that sort of attitude is why so many thing suck. There is a lot of point in, if not getting aggravated, striving to do better in the things you do.
        gregjor 4y ago
        This doesn’t really deserve a reply, because you have extrapolated from my comments about something I had nothing to do with (a phone tree) and my advice to not take out frustration on people who have no power or control over such inconveniences (customer service operators). How you got to my skills or what I might do in such cases I can’t tell, but it’s a leap of thinking that just seems like misdirection or jumbled logic. I do design and implement user-facing software, have done that for decades, and can point to online testimonials about my own work as user-friendly. As I described in comments in this topic (not necessarily in response to you, but you can see all of my comments), bad phone trees can happen for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with deliberate bad user experience. It can be as simple as the explanation for why a Jeep spare tire won’t work on my Mazda. And yes, as I already described, some of the explanations have to do with saving money and reducing operator time on call, which we as customers perceive as frustration and not caring, but at minimum you have to understand that the problem has multiple dimensions. As for not getting aggravated and frustrated, I only advised against taking that out on people who have no control or power or ability to fix problems. Whether the OP actually did that or not is irrelevant. Lots of people do berate and shout at customer service reps, and if you have ever worked in a call center (I have) you would know what a crushing experience that is, to get shouted at and blamed for problems you cannot influence or fix. A little patience and empathy goes a long way. Feel free to email the software managers at the company with the shitty phone tree. Feel free to design a better phone tree and call center user experience and sell it to the big companies that use those products. I can already tell you that end-user/customer satisfaction is not a metric most companies care about, so feel free to not use those companies. That’s how I handle it — terrible customer service, I take my business elsewhere. I don’t bitch about bad phone trees online or yell at customer service reps about it.

gregjor 4y ago

> Its aggravating and sets the wrong tone for my support call. One can read that in different ways. When I’m aggravated by the time I get through to a person I may communicate that by my tone. Having worked on the receiving end of support calls I know that’s common. Who else can they vent on?

robbrown451 4y ago
And they have a right to be aggravated. You're talking about something else, their outward reaction, which you are making assumptions about. I'd hope every user interface designer (and yes this is user interface design) also gets aggravated by bad design. If all you do is make excuses for bad design, it's a good bet your designs suck.
- gregjor 4y ago
  I made no excuses. I did offer some possible explanations in a different comment thread. I didn’t go so far as to say anyone’s work sucked. I don’t let myself get aggravated over things I can’t control or that likely have causes other than malice or someone sucking at design. I don’t take out my frustrations on customer support people. Not worth it, no point.
  - robbrown451 4y ago
    Again, no one took out their frustrations on customer support, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that. They came to HN and voiced them.
    - gregjor 4y ago
      You don’t know that. We just interpret the original complaint differently. If someone says their frustration with a phone tree “sets the tone” that implies something about the following conversation. A “tone” doesn’t mean anything without a conversation. Complaining on HN will not get any closer to changing the actual problem. I offered possible explanations elsewhere — multiple vendors, incompatible systems, outsourcing, deliberate friction to reduce human call volume, anti-fraud. Sheer incompetence or even malice present possible explanations too. I stand by my original answer: Things don’t necessarily work the way we think they should, that’s simply a fact, so there’s no point letting yourself get aggravated about those things.
      - robbrown451 4y ago
        I hope you don't design things that other people use, because that sort of attitude is why so many thing suck. There is a lot of point in, if not getting aggravated, striving to do better in the things you do.
        gregjor 4y ago
        This doesn’t really deserve a reply, because you have extrapolated from my comments about something I had nothing to do with (a phone tree) and my advice to not take out frustration on people who have no power or control over such inconveniences (customer service operators). How you got to my skills or what I might do in such cases I can’t tell, but it’s a leap of thinking that just seems like misdirection or jumbled logic. I do design and implement user-facing software, have done that for decades, and can point to online testimonials about my own work as user-friendly. As I described in comments in this topic (not necessarily in response to you, but you can see all of my comments), bad phone trees can happen for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with deliberate bad user experience. It can be as simple as the explanation for why a Jeep spare tire won’t work on my Mazda. And yes, as I already described, some of the explanations have to do with saving money and reducing operator time on call, which we as customers perceive as frustration and not caring, but at minimum you have to understand that the problem has multiple dimensions. As for not getting aggravated and frustrated, I only advised against taking that out on people who have no control or power or ability to fix problems. Whether the OP actually did that or not is irrelevant. Lots of people do berate and shout at customer service reps, and if you have ever worked in a call center (I have) you would know what a crushing experience that is, to get shouted at and blamed for problems you cannot influence or fix. A little patience and empathy goes a long way. Feel free to email the software managers at the company with the shitty phone tree. Feel free to design a better phone tree and call center user experience and sell it to the big companies that use those products. I can already tell you that end-user/customer satisfaction is not a metric most companies care about, so feel free to not use those companies. That’s how I handle it — terrible customer service, I take my business elsewhere. I don’t bitch about bad phone trees online or yell at customer service reps about it.