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Both times, people organized a social media campaign to try to get CF to drop services for a site they disliked, and both times CF first refused in the interest

Both times, people organized a social media campaign to try to get CF to drop services for a site they disliked, and both times CF first refused in the interest of free speech, safe harbor, let law enforcement handle it, etc, then flipped like a switch and dropped their services when the mob didn't go away fast enough. Now you can hate Stormfront's message (I do), and you can hate what people are allowed to say and do on Kiwi Farms, and in that light you can feel that CF's actions are just fine. But just be aware that if your site becomes the next pariah of the internet some way or some how, CF is prone to drop your services as well. And it's their right to do so, of course, but the way they're saying stuff like "The policies we articulated last Wednesday remain our policies" and that this is a special case are rather ridiculous. How many more times will this happen before it stops being a particularly special case?

ketzo 4y ago
"Hate the message" is a huge oversimplification. People don't want Stormfront gone for aesthetic reasons. They want Stormfront and similar sites gone because they encourage physical violence against certain peoples. It is, IMO, a huge strawman to say that people just "don't like" these sites.
- Cyberdog 4y ago
  And it's a huge strawman to imply I said people just wanted SF gone for aesthetic reasons. At any rate, if "hate the message" of SF is inappropriate, what would you suggest instead? I, and many other people, strongly disagree with the ideas that most people on SF advocate for. I think that "hate their message" works just fine there.
  - dillondoyle 4y ago
    How about stop the violence and harassment? It's not just a message or speech. It involves IRL stocking, harassment, and violence against people they target based on hate and discrimination.
    - Cyberdog 4y ago
      It is not possible for violence to occur via the internet. And if you believe that posts on the site somehow constitutes harassment to an illegal degree, contact law enforcement.
      - dillondoyle 4y ago
        The violence is organized and facilitated via the internet. And yes law enforcement should have been more involved much quicker
        Cyberdog 4y ago
        Now that KF is back up (good job, CF), please find me one post on KF that involves the planning of violence which wasn't either deleted or ridiculed into oblivion by the other posters there. If it's so common, this should be an easy task, right?
        nafey 4y ago
        Why don't you see this as an example: https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566153033586810885 https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566153033586810885
        acali 4y ago
        That post was deleted within minutes. The user was banned. Do we also need word filters to prevent the post from even appearing client side?
- LessimiGoats 4y ago
- jdasdf 4y ago
  If encouraging violence against people is the standard you're on, then any website should be gone, including HN. What you actually mean is that as long as its against people you personally dislike, then you're ok with that.
  - zionic 4y ago
    Exactly. You can go on Reddit right now and find calls for violence, extermination of various groups, etc etc etc, but you’ll never see cloudfare take action then. Censorship always starts with the undesirables. It never ends there.
iamevn 4y ago
terminatornet 4y ago
- BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
  >”wow, if they could do that to nazis they could do that to me (not a nazi)!” Yes, that is literally the concern. Activists hurl around the Nazi label with reckless abandon, showing little to no restraint when foisting the label on people they disagree with. There is also a sentiment taking hold that not being enthusiastically anti-Nazi makes you a Nazi sympathizer. So yes, people have some reasonable reservations about where this could go, without having any real Nazi sympathies. ”wow, if they could do that to heretics, they could do the same thing to me (not a heretic)!”
  - terminatornet 4y ago
    personally, i'd solve that by being enthusiastically anti-nazi, but if you can't muster up the strength to say nazis are bad, thats something you'll have to figure out on your own.
    - nathanaldensr 4y ago
      Your perspective leads to radical polarization between two alternate extremes--what we're seeing happening to political discourse across the entire Western world--and, eventually, war and death.
      - terminatornet 4y ago
        https://twitter.com/thenib/status/1027247065783574528 https://twitter.com/thenib/status/1027247065783574528
    - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
      >”i'd solve that by being enthusiastically anti-nazi, but if you can't muster up the strength to say nazis are bad, thats something you'll have to figure out on your own.” Case in point, right here.
dnissley 4y ago
Generally in agreement with you here, but are you aware the specifics around why CF dropped services for Stormfront? CF were holding the line until Stormfront's people claimed that CF were secretly supporters of Stormfront's ideology... which seems like a totally valid reason to drop their services. Just as if you hired security guards and started being an abusive jerk to them every day, it seems like a reasonable decision for the security agency to drop their services.
- contravariant 4y ago
  I guess what makes it difficult in this case is that the amount of power CF has is so great that any use of that power is immediately troubling. It's a bit like if pretty much all security guards were under the control of a single company and that company denied services to a person under threat, and in this analogy there's no government to fill the gap.
  - voganmother42 4y ago
    But there are alternatives, cloudflare isn’t the government, they don’t even have a monopoly. How is this different from people complaining about facebook not hosting their content - take your stuff to some other private entity that wants to do business with you, these are not institutions which have any obligation or mission beyond making money - even if they like to make PR noises that may be misconstrued otherwise. “Sir, this is a Wendy’s”
Pxtl 4y ago
> But just be aware that if your site becomes the next pariah of the internet some way or some how, CF is prone to drop your services as well. There's a dril tweet for everything. https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312

ketzo 4y ago

"Hate the message" is a huge oversimplification. People don't want Stormfront gone for aesthetic reasons. They want Stormfront and similar sites gone because they encourage physical violence against certain peoples. It is, IMO, a huge strawman to say that people just "don't like" these sites.

Cyberdog 4y ago
And it's a huge strawman to imply I said people just wanted SF gone for aesthetic reasons. At any rate, if "hate the message" of SF is inappropriate, what would you suggest instead? I, and many other people, strongly disagree with the ideas that most people on SF advocate for. I think that "hate their message" works just fine there.
- dillondoyle 4y ago
  How about stop the violence and harassment? It's not just a message or speech. It involves IRL stocking, harassment, and violence against people they target based on hate and discrimination.
  - Cyberdog 4y ago
    It is not possible for violence to occur via the internet. And if you believe that posts on the site somehow constitutes harassment to an illegal degree, contact law enforcement.
    - dillondoyle 4y ago
      The violence is organized and facilitated via the internet. And yes law enforcement should have been more involved much quicker
      - Cyberdog 4y ago
        Now that KF is back up (good job, CF), please find me one post on KF that involves the planning of violence which wasn't either deleted or ridiculed into oblivion by the other posters there. If it's so common, this should be an easy task, right?
        nafey 4y ago
        Why don't you see this as an example: https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566153033586810885 https://twitter.com/keffals/status/1566153033586810885
        acali 4y ago
        That post was deleted within minutes. The user was banned. Do we also need word filters to prevent the post from even appearing client side?
LessimiGoats 4y ago
jdasdf 4y ago
If encouraging violence against people is the standard you're on, then any website should be gone, including HN. What you actually mean is that as long as its against people you personally dislike, then you're ok with that.
- zionic 4y ago
  Exactly. You can go on Reddit right now and find calls for violence, extermination of various groups, etc etc etc, but you’ll never see cloudfare take action then. Censorship always starts with the undesirables. It never ends there.

iamevn 4y ago

terminatornet 4y ago

BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
>”wow, if they could do that to nazis they could do that to me (not a nazi)!” Yes, that is literally the concern. Activists hurl around the Nazi label with reckless abandon, showing little to no restraint when foisting the label on people they disagree with. There is also a sentiment taking hold that not being enthusiastically anti-Nazi makes you a Nazi sympathizer. So yes, people have some reasonable reservations about where this could go, without having any real Nazi sympathies. ”wow, if they could do that to heretics, they could do the same thing to me (not a heretic)!”
- terminatornet 4y ago
  personally, i'd solve that by being enthusiastically anti-nazi, but if you can't muster up the strength to say nazis are bad, thats something you'll have to figure out on your own.
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    Your perspective leads to radical polarization between two alternate extremes--what we're seeing happening to political discourse across the entire Western world--and, eventually, war and death.
    - terminatornet 4y ago
      https://twitter.com/thenib/status/1027247065783574528 https://twitter.com/thenib/status/1027247065783574528
  - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
    >”i'd solve that by being enthusiastically anti-nazi, but if you can't muster up the strength to say nazis are bad, thats something you'll have to figure out on your own.” Case in point, right here.

dnissley 4y ago

Generally in agreement with you here, but are you aware the specifics around why CF dropped services for Stormfront? CF were holding the line until Stormfront's people claimed that CF were secretly supporters of Stormfront's ideology... which seems like a totally valid reason to drop their services. Just as if you hired security guards and started being an abusive jerk to them every day, it seems like a reasonable decision for the security agency to drop their services.

contravariant 4y ago
I guess what makes it difficult in this case is that the amount of power CF has is so great that any use of that power is immediately troubling. It's a bit like if pretty much all security guards were under the control of a single company and that company denied services to a person under threat, and in this analogy there's no government to fill the gap.
- voganmother42 4y ago
  But there are alternatives, cloudflare isn’t the government, they don’t even have a monopoly. How is this different from people complaining about facebook not hosting their content - take your stuff to some other private entity that wants to do business with you, these are not institutions which have any obligation or mission beyond making money - even if they like to make PR noises that may be misconstrued otherwise. “Sir, this is a Wendy’s”

Pxtl 4y ago

> But just be aware that if your site becomes the next pariah of the internet some way or some how, CF is prone to drop your services as well. There's a dril tweet for everything. https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312 https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312