5 ms·

>Kiwifarms itself will most likely find other infrastructure that allows them to come back online, as the Daily Stormer and 8chan did themselves after we termin

by alexb_ 4y ago

>Kiwifarms itself will most likely find other infrastructure that allows them to come back online, as the Daily Stormer and 8chan did themselves after we terminated them. And, even if they don't, the individuals that used the site to increasingly terrorize will feel even more isolated and attacked and may lash out further. There is real risk that by taking this action today we may have further heightened the emergency. Yeah no shit, of course this is going to happen. It's clearly just a way to save face from Cloudflare - though they definitely needed to do it as this problem was never going to go away for them if they didn't. The entire point of the internet is to be uncensorable, and that's not going to change with them dropping KiwiFarms. As terrible of a website as it is, it's just going to come back up with a provider that has even lower moral standards than Cloudflare.

bitwize 4y ago
- erpart 4y ago
- google234123 4y ago
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    “Lives are on the line” is at least more original than “Think of the children”.
    - nathanaldensr 4y ago
      Hardly. They are both designed to evoke an ultimate position of unassailable moral superiority. No discourse, dissent, or discussion is permitted with such obvious moral correctness.
  - savryn 4y ago
    I'm new here, and I see a totally fair comment below this has been flagged. Same as the thread on 'decline of nude sunbathing' where my comment and the few obvious supporting comments from actual women and Europeans in question were flagged, despite that safety from assault is the basic existential underpinning of being naked and women's key fear. If hackernews won't allow cultural topics at all, great. But when it does, it's morally repulsive to flag and target and mute the voices from the key subjects. Direct "lived experience" by actual women on any topic takes second fiddle to the neoliberal narratives of nerdy men running these echo chambers? Someone please give me the wink wink defactos here, is the hackernews enforced narrative the same as the r/twoxchromosomes clown world, where women's voices on their political and social interests get moderated by those without two x chromosomes? Guess we're back to the false feminism of "only nice girls allowed" where nice girls only do and think what men let them.
    - Google234 4y ago
      You can probably email dang (probably @ycombin…) if you want. Mentioning his user name here might be enough too.
    - nkurz 4y ago
      > Someone please give me the wink wink defactos here HN as a website allows many unpopular opinions to be expressed, but a minority of users will flag just about any unpopular opinion. If two (three?) people flag the same comment, it disappears for most users and is marked [flagged] [dead]. Some small population of HN users browse with "showdead: yes" (apparently you've already done this?). If you have enough "karma" (500?) you can "vouch" to revive a topic that has been flagged. Some users regularly do this, and over time, most (but not all) polite and constructive comments end up revived. As a new user, there's not a lot you can do about this, other than posting your own polite and constructive comments, even if they go against the dominent narrative. If you come across a particularly good comment you think was unfairly flagged that isn't revived soon after, you can quote it and repost to call attention to it. Or you can email Dan (hn@ycombinator.com) and point it out to him. He can be slow to respond, and won't always do what you want, but he'll usually give you an honest answer if he doesn't.
    - 4y ago
- barry-cotter 4y ago
- rejectfinite 4y ago
  Who decides what hate is? As you said it has evolved. Your emotional "lives are on the line" in dramatic italics makes you look very dramatic.
- rvz 4y ago
  - bitwize 4y ago
tsujamin 4y ago
> The entire point of the internet is to be uncensorable I find this interesting, is this the point of the internet, Or is this a personal value or feature people overlay on the internet? At a history/protocol level I’d be pressed to say the internet was designed to be uncensorsble, fault tolerant perhaps at best
fabianhjr 4y ago
> The entire point of the internet is to be uncensorable That isn't the point, the internet protocol is designed as a distributed networking system that was adopted by corporations; if you want censorship resistance or privacy that isn't part of that specific protocol. (For example check alternatives such a CJDNS, GNUnet, Yggdrasil, etc; or application-layer protocols such as I2P/IPFS/TOR) Additionally the Internet Protocol is not resistant to intermediation. (Or in the words of the P2P Foundiation: it is not counter-anti-desintermediation: https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediation https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediatio...) > The idea of disintermediation was central to the emancipatory visions of the Internet, yet the landscape today is more mediated than ever before. If we are to understand the consequences of an increasingly centralized Internet, we need to start by addressing the root cause of this concentration. Centralization is required to capture profit. Disintermediating platforms were ultimately reintermediated by way of capitalist investors dictating that communications systems be designed to capture profit.
Cyberdog 4y ago
> this problem was never going to go away for them if they didn't. Sure it was. Another week or two and the angry people would have got bored and moved on to some other outrage. Instead they have been shown that the infrastructure of the internet will bend to their will if they make enough noise. Good job, CF.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  It won't take a month and they have the next request.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    There was more time between Cloudflare dropping 8chan and KF than between Cloudflare dropping Stormfront and 8chan. By the (very dubious and limited, but) only metric we have, the rate of Cloudflare's "bad site" removals is slowing, and its a factor of 20 or 30x from monthly like you're claiming. The sky isn't falling, and the slippery slope is demonstrably not there in this case.

by alexb_ 4y ago

bitwize 4y ago

erpart 4y ago
google234123 4y ago
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  “Lives are on the line” is at least more original than “Think of the children”.
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    Hardly. They are both designed to evoke an ultimate position of unassailable moral superiority. No discourse, dissent, or discussion is permitted with such obvious moral correctness.
- savryn 4y ago
  I'm new here, and I see a totally fair comment below this has been flagged. Same as the thread on 'decline of nude sunbathing' where my comment and the few obvious supporting comments from actual women and Europeans in question were flagged, despite that safety from assault is the basic existential underpinning of being naked and women's key fear. If hackernews won't allow cultural topics at all, great. But when it does, it's morally repulsive to flag and target and mute the voices from the key subjects. Direct "lived experience" by actual women on any topic takes second fiddle to the neoliberal narratives of nerdy men running these echo chambers? Someone please give me the wink wink defactos here, is the hackernews enforced narrative the same as the r/twoxchromosomes clown world, where women's voices on their political and social interests get moderated by those without two x chromosomes? Guess we're back to the false feminism of "only nice girls allowed" where nice girls only do and think what men let them.
  - Google234 4y ago
    You can probably email dang (probably @ycombin…) if you want. Mentioning his user name here might be enough too.
  - nkurz 4y ago
    > Someone please give me the wink wink defactos here HN as a website allows many unpopular opinions to be expressed, but a minority of users will flag just about any unpopular opinion. If two (three?) people flag the same comment, it disappears for most users and is marked [flagged] [dead]. Some small population of HN users browse with "showdead: yes" (apparently you've already done this?). If you have enough "karma" (500?) you can "vouch" to revive a topic that has been flagged. Some users regularly do this, and over time, most (but not all) polite and constructive comments end up revived. As a new user, there's not a lot you can do about this, other than posting your own polite and constructive comments, even if they go against the dominent narrative. If you come across a particularly good comment you think was unfairly flagged that isn't revived soon after, you can quote it and repost to call attention to it. Or you can email Dan (hn@ycombinator.com) and point it out to him. He can be slow to respond, and won't always do what you want, but he'll usually give you an honest answer if he doesn't.
  - 4y ago
barry-cotter 4y ago
rejectfinite 4y ago
Who decides what hate is? As you said it has evolved. Your emotional "lives are on the line" in dramatic italics makes you look very dramatic.
rvz 4y ago
- bitwize 4y ago

tsujamin 4y ago

> The entire point of the internet is to be uncensorable I find this interesting, is this the point of the internet, Or is this a personal value or feature people overlay on the internet? At a history/protocol level I’d be pressed to say the internet was designed to be uncensorsble, fault tolerant perhaps at best

fabianhjr 4y ago

> The entire point of the internet is to be uncensorable That isn't the point, the internet protocol is designed as a distributed networking system that was adopted by corporations; if you want censorship resistance or privacy that isn't part of that specific protocol. (For example check alternatives such a CJDNS, GNUnet, Yggdrasil, etc; or application-layer protocols such as I2P/IPFS/TOR) Additionally the Internet Protocol is not resistant to intermediation. (Or in the words of the P2P Foundiation: it is not counter-anti-desintermediation: https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediation https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Counter-Anti-Disintermediatio...) > The idea of disintermediation was central to the emancipatory visions of the Internet, yet the landscape today is more mediated than ever before. If we are to understand the consequences of an increasingly centralized Internet, we need to start by addressing the root cause of this concentration. Centralization is required to capture profit. Disintermediating platforms were ultimately reintermediated by way of capitalist investors dictating that communications systems be designed to capture profit.

Cyberdog 4y ago

> this problem was never going to go away for them if they didn't. Sure it was. Another week or two and the angry people would have got bored and moved on to some other outrage. Instead they have been shown that the infrastructure of the internet will bend to their will if they make enough noise. Good job, CF.

raxxorraxor 4y ago
It won't take a month and they have the next request.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  There was more time between Cloudflare dropping 8chan and KF than between Cloudflare dropping Stormfront and 8chan. By the (very dubious and limited, but) only metric we have, the rate of Cloudflare's "bad site" removals is slowing, and its a factor of 20 or 30x from monthly like you're claiming. The sky isn't falling, and the slippery slope is demonstrably not there in this case.