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They are barking up the wrong tree, because as far as I know, no developer is paying attention to proprioception. Not sure what you mean by this. VR headsets k

They are barking up the wrong tree, because as far as I know, no developer is paying attention to proprioception. Not sure what you mean by this. VR headsets know exactly where your hands are and can infer most of the rest of your pose from head height, they rely pretty heavily on that for the immersion.

Maursault 4y ago
While position tracking is important, what I was talking about was the user's sense of proprioception. Seems to me that too much attention has been given to tuning the visual response to the user turning their head or looking up and down, or turning around, and little to no attention being given to attenuating the user's sense of proprioception, to reenforcing the feeling that the virtual body parts are an integral part of the user's actual real-world body.
- codeulike 4y ago
  Have you used any modern VR sets?
  - Maursault 4y ago
    Depends. Are you attacking my credibility with an ad hominem fallacy? Just wondering. Because if so, it is only because my argument has confounded you, and if you can't beat that, maybe you can beat me.
    - codeulike 4y ago
      But have you? Because I have and to me, within the confines of what is economically feasible (eg hand tracking but not leg tracking), they seem to spend a lot of effort on proprioception. I think in a conversation about VR it's ok to ask whether youve actually used it.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        > I think in a conversation about VR it's ok to ask whether youve actually used it. I don't see how it's relevant. Nearly all VR insights came from those who never actually used it, namely because it didn't exist yet. But, in fact, I have used VR quite extensively. I do own or have owned or borrowed or used or demoed at least 50 different models over the last 25 years, and my experience over the last decade has only ever reinforced this grievance, that VR hardware developers and content producers are paying little to no attention to the user's proprioception, and nothing I have ever seen, neither in my own experience, in depth reviews, documentation, nor your own statements has led me to believe otherwise. Though the component technology is getting better all the time, the VR development is no different than it was in 1996. It's as though developers are either entirely unaware that proprioception exists, or are aware and think it will take care of itself. And though it does sometimes, accidentally, it is not every time and always, and there is no great reason why it shouldn't, other than that developers apparently either haven't discovered it, or haven't discovered how. Quid pro quo, now please give me your VR credentials so I know I'm not wasting my time. After all, once you can no longer speak to someone's argument, you think it is ok to personally attack them. So let's scrutinize your experience and knowledge in kind and see how much of an expert you really are, and maybe see if we can't get you to realize that when your ability to persuade fails, and you have no further ability to make valid argument and nothing more to offer, then you should really simply stop, leave others alone, and not try to bully or attempt to humiliate them with personal attack.
        codeulike 4y ago
        I simply asked if you had used any modern VR sets and you have started accusing me of 'personally attacking you'. Nearly all VR insights came from those who never actually used it, namely because it didn't exist yet. Everything gets invented by people who've never used it. But VR is an explicitly experiential medium. Again, I think in a VR discussion its perfectly fine to ask if someone has used it. I have an Oculus Quest 2 (for my sins), when I first used it I was blown away although I find myself not bothering with it much now, there doesnt seem to be much to draw me back there, which makes me think Meta are heading for trouble. But thats an aside. I'm confused about your argument and I think perhaps by proprioception you mean something different to what I'm thinking? Because my experience with the Quest is that the device knows exactly where my hands are, their exact orientation and even what my fingers are doing. And it puts a lot of effort into making my 'hands' part of the experience by showing them to me in VR. This to me seems to be leaning heavily on my innate sense of proprioception to maintain the VR illusion. True, it doesn't know where the rest of me is. But the hands are the most important part, hence it seems that within the confines of what is economically feasible (eg hand tracking but not leg tracking), the developers of the Quest have spent a lot of effort on proprioception. But you maintain that VR developers are entirely unaware of proprioception. So I think you are talking about proprioception in a deeper sense? Or in a sense that has not occurred to me? I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean.

Maursault 4y ago

While position tracking is important, what I was talking about was the user's sense of proprioception. Seems to me that too much attention has been given to tuning the visual response to the user turning their head or looking up and down, or turning around, and little to no attention being given to attenuating the user's sense of proprioception, to reenforcing the feeling that the virtual body parts are an integral part of the user's actual real-world body.

codeulike 4y ago
Have you used any modern VR sets?
- Maursault 4y ago
  Depends. Are you attacking my credibility with an ad hominem fallacy? Just wondering. Because if so, it is only because my argument has confounded you, and if you can't beat that, maybe you can beat me.
  - codeulike 4y ago
    But have you? Because I have and to me, within the confines of what is economically feasible (eg hand tracking but not leg tracking), they seem to spend a lot of effort on proprioception. I think in a conversation about VR it's ok to ask whether youve actually used it.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > I think in a conversation about VR it's ok to ask whether youve actually used it. I don't see how it's relevant. Nearly all VR insights came from those who never actually used it, namely because it didn't exist yet. But, in fact, I have used VR quite extensively. I do own or have owned or borrowed or used or demoed at least 50 different models over the last 25 years, and my experience over the last decade has only ever reinforced this grievance, that VR hardware developers and content producers are paying little to no attention to the user's proprioception, and nothing I have ever seen, neither in my own experience, in depth reviews, documentation, nor your own statements has led me to believe otherwise. Though the component technology is getting better all the time, the VR development is no different than it was in 1996. It's as though developers are either entirely unaware that proprioception exists, or are aware and think it will take care of itself. And though it does sometimes, accidentally, it is not every time and always, and there is no great reason why it shouldn't, other than that developers apparently either haven't discovered it, or haven't discovered how. Quid pro quo, now please give me your VR credentials so I know I'm not wasting my time. After all, once you can no longer speak to someone's argument, you think it is ok to personally attack them. So let's scrutinize your experience and knowledge in kind and see how much of an expert you really are, and maybe see if we can't get you to realize that when your ability to persuade fails, and you have no further ability to make valid argument and nothing more to offer, then you should really simply stop, leave others alone, and not try to bully or attempt to humiliate them with personal attack.
      - codeulike 4y ago
        I simply asked if you had used any modern VR sets and you have started accusing me of 'personally attacking you'. Nearly all VR insights came from those who never actually used it, namely because it didn't exist yet. Everything gets invented by people who've never used it. But VR is an explicitly experiential medium. Again, I think in a VR discussion its perfectly fine to ask if someone has used it. I have an Oculus Quest 2 (for my sins), when I first used it I was blown away although I find myself not bothering with it much now, there doesnt seem to be much to draw me back there, which makes me think Meta are heading for trouble. But thats an aside. I'm confused about your argument and I think perhaps by proprioception you mean something different to what I'm thinking? Because my experience with the Quest is that the device knows exactly where my hands are, their exact orientation and even what my fingers are doing. And it puts a lot of effort into making my 'hands' part of the experience by showing them to me in VR. This to me seems to be leaning heavily on my innate sense of proprioception to maintain the VR illusion. True, it doesn't know where the rest of me is. But the hands are the most important part, hence it seems that within the confines of what is economically feasible (eg hand tracking but not leg tracking), the developers of the Quest have spent a lot of effort on proprioception. But you maintain that VR developers are entirely unaware of proprioception. So I think you are talking about proprioception in a deeper sense? Or in a sense that has not occurred to me? I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean.