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> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat. This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them?

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them? You can’t use property rights to defend the parents. The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > The goat had been auctioned. And the family argued that they have backed out of the auction before it started. Thus they haven't sold the goat. Thus they own the goat. Are they right? I don't know. But it is far from as straight forward as you depict it to be.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    There may be a claim against the Fair, though that depends on the auction rules. (I’d be stunned if they permit day-of withdrawal.) As for the cops, they got a warrant [1]. (It’s unclear if they had the right to return the property to the presumptive legal owner.) [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  > Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights. Not really, the sheriffs traveled outside their county and seized the goat without a warrant. Where I come from this is called “cattle rustling” and is a hanging offense. Well, not really since I’m originally from California but it is definitely an illegal search and seizure. Pretty sure they could’ve just told the sheriffs to fuck off and called the local law enforcement to straighten out that mess but most people won’t do that because they show up with tactical body armor and assault rifles. —edit— Contrary to TFA they did indeed have a warrant to seize Cedar…a dubious warrant maybe but a warrant they did have.
- homeland221 4y ago
  The law enforcer cannot trespass the land especially if he is not from their state. Some states also allow these out of state law enforcer to be exterminated on probable cause as well. Dox these law enforcers names and also the fair's committee. Election is coming. Everything is legal during election time including doxing.
vogt 4y ago
What are you talking about? Is everyone who responded completely unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs? The animal was bought to be auctioned, and WAS auctioned at the 4H fair. The article literally says the girl had a breakdown _at_ the auction.
- krisoft 4y ago
  > Is everyone who responded completely unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs? I don't know about other people, but I'm happy to admit that I'm unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs. > The article literally says the girl had a breakdown _at_ the auction. The Sacramento Bee article linked by the Guardian article says that they expressed their wish to not sell the goat before the auction. "Before the auction began, the family asked to back out but fair officials refused, saying fair rules prohibited that and put the goat up for auction,..." That sounds like a civilian dispute. Did the owner/family had the right to back out of the auction at that point or did they not? How can a law enforcement agent become a judge to decide on this?
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > they expressed their wish to not sell the goat before the auction On the day of. Most auctions don’t permit this. (Again, livestock auctions have a lot of law around them. Their orderly functioning underlies several states’ economies. Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a point.) > can a law enforcement agent become a judge to decide on this? They got a warrant [1] [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9
    - krisoft 4y ago
      > Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a Well this person certainly learned an important lesson about where meat comes from. > They got a warrant. By misrepresenting facts. And then the warrant didn't authorise them to hand the goat over to some other third party.
      - 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them? You can’t use property rights to defend the parents. The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

krisoft 4y ago
> The goat had been auctioned. And the family argued that they have backed out of the auction before it started. Thus they haven't sold the goat. Thus they own the goat. Are they right? I don't know. But it is far from as straight forward as you depict it to be.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  There may be a claim against the Fair, though that depends on the auction rules. (I’d be stunned if they permit day-of withdrawal.) As for the cops, they got a warrant [1]. (It’s unclear if they had the right to return the property to the presumptive legal owner.) [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
UncleEntity 4y ago
> Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights. Not really, the sheriffs traveled outside their county and seized the goat without a warrant. Where I come from this is called “cattle rustling” and is a hanging offense. Well, not really since I’m originally from California but it is definitely an illegal search and seizure. Pretty sure they could’ve just told the sheriffs to fuck off and called the local law enforcement to straighten out that mess but most people won’t do that because they show up with tactical body armor and assault rifles. —edit— Contrary to TFA they did indeed have a warrant to seize Cedar…a dubious warrant maybe but a warrant they did have.
homeland221 4y ago
The law enforcer cannot trespass the land especially if he is not from their state. Some states also allow these out of state law enforcer to be exterminated on probable cause as well. Dox these law enforcers names and also the fair's committee. Election is coming. Everything is legal during election time including doxing.

vogt 4y ago

What are you talking about? Is everyone who responded completely unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs? The animal was bought to be auctioned, and WAS auctioned at the 4H fair. The article literally says the girl had a breakdown _at_ the auction.

krisoft 4y ago
> Is everyone who responded completely unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs? I don't know about other people, but I'm happy to admit that I'm unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs. > The article literally says the girl had a breakdown _at_ the auction. The Sacramento Bee article linked by the Guardian article says that they expressed their wish to not sell the goat before the auction. "Before the auction began, the family asked to back out but fair officials refused, saying fair rules prohibited that and put the goat up for auction,..." That sounds like a civilian dispute. Did the owner/family had the right to back out of the auction at that point or did they not? How can a law enforcement agent become a judge to decide on this?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > they expressed their wish to not sell the goat before the auction On the day of. Most auctions don’t permit this. (Again, livestock auctions have a lot of law around them. Their orderly functioning underlies several states’ economies. Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a point.) > can a law enforcement agent become a judge to decide on this? They got a warrant [1] [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9
  - krisoft 4y ago
    > Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a Well this person certainly learned an important lesson about where meat comes from. > They got a warrant. By misrepresenting facts. And then the warrant didn't authorise them to hand the goat over to some other third party.
    - 4y ago