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> Every single leader went there and begged Putin not to invade. Even if that were true, that is not negotiation. Negotiation implies give and take. Given th

> Every single leader went there and begged Putin not to invade. Even if that were true, that is not negotiation. Negotiation implies give and take. Given that the US already agreed not to expand NATO to Russia's border (honored by Bush Sr., but broken by Clinton), a good starting point to negotiation would be to agree to honor past commitments. The vast majority of the people in Crimea (as Donbas) are Russian speaking, and voted to join Russia[1]. Part of the context leading up to the unrest in Crimea was a far-right government in Kieve that proposed policies against Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens[2]. I'm not opining on Russia's actions in 2014 or today, just pointing out that things were and are a lot more complicated than the dominant narrative in the west (I was surprised to find any US mainstream news source that reported on the referendum, at all, to use as a reference). [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/crimeans-vote-overwhelmingly-to-secede-from-ukraine-join-russia/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/crimeans-vote-overwhelmingly-to... [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/4/9/why-ethnopolitics-doesnt-work-in-ukraine/ https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/4/9/why-ethnopolitic...

invalidname 4y ago
Russia organizes fake elections wherever it invades to create a pretext of support and democracy. There's no external supervision of the elections and they have no bearing on the reality. When you have no true free speech, state TV blasting disinformation, etc. there's no real elections. Putin repeatedly violated agreements signed by his predecessors including over Crimea with flimsy excuses like the one you're parroting. We're talking about a guy whose opposition is all dead or in jail. You're arguing for a murderous dictator. The only policies were the removal of requirement to teach Russian everywhere. It was a ridiculous excuse to go to war. You don't get Russian in your school let's bomb you and your neighbors. There was no Russian heritage discrimination but there was openness to the west which did make Putin nervous. Clinton adding countries to NATO is not Ukraine's fault and has absolutely nothing to do with them. The invasion had the opposite effect on Russia and shows how stupid Putin really is because now NATO is at his door. Had he not invaded things would have been better off for him.
- sillystuff 4y ago
  > You're arguing for a murderous dictator. I'm not arguing for anybody. You obviously have very strong feelings about this subject. But, please do not attribute to me positions I have not expressed. My actual positions (as stated above): War kills and maims people. Killing and maiming people should be avoided. Russia made statements about why they felt the need for war. Taking those statements at face value would have caused no harm if they were false-- we would simply be in the same place as we are today with war. Taking those statements at face value could have saved many Ukrainian and Russian lives if they were true and addressed. Russia's stated concerns have not been addressed in peace negotiations, so we do not know if war could have been avoided or if the war could be brought to an end sooner. Russians and Ukrainians are currently killing and maiming each other. The history of the situation is complicated-- there is more than the typical western narrative encompasses. Russia must bear responsibility for their decision to go to war. But, the US is possibly antagonistic toward negotiations. At a minimum, the US has not engaged in negotiations nor addressed Russia's stated concerns and thus threw away a potential opportunity to prevent bloodshed. US/NATO pumping weapons into Ukraine serves to extend the conflict (and the death count) before the inevitable negotiations to end the conflict. To summarize, I'd prefer if we made an effort to not kill people.
  - invalidname 4y ago
    Russia lies. A lot. Why the hell go to the premise of taking anything they say at face value? There are multiple steps before going to war. Putin was looking for an excuse to go to war and also tried fabricating stuff like Nazis controlling Ukraine (which has a Jewish president) because he knew this is a flimsy excuse. Repeating this nonsense gives validity to a war criminal. > Russians and Ukrainians are currently killing and maiming each other. No. One side invaded the other. This isn't symmetric. > The history of the situation is complicated No. There's a lot of noise in terms of history. But people use it to mask simple facts. A dictator invaded a sovereign nation. Killed civilians who he claims to protect. The US isn't at fault in any way. You can't negotiate with a liar who violates agreements. Russia attacked US elections in a blatant way and explicitly instigated a policy of sabotage. There were plenty of opportunities along the way to de-escalate. But the US didn't escalate. It very explicitly stated early on that no soldiers will go into Ukraine. It made it hard for Ukraine to join NATO, etc. Putin violated the status quo. They arm Ukraine because the alternative would be the annihilation of the country. So far the Russian forces took over areas and forced migration into Russia, killed people in the streets, etc. These are terrible people. > To summarize, I'd prefer if we made an effort to not kill people. This is nonsense. A lot of effort was put into that. Unfortunately, sometimes the only thing you can do is stand up and protect your country. This is what the people of Ukraine are doing. Putin isn't giving them a choice. They have talks all the time. In the talks people literally got poisoned! You're perpetuating a false Russian narrative that has been discredited time and time again.

invalidname 4y ago

Russia organizes fake elections wherever it invades to create a pretext of support and democracy. There's no external supervision of the elections and they have no bearing on the reality. When you have no true free speech, state TV blasting disinformation, etc. there's no real elections. Putin repeatedly violated agreements signed by his predecessors including over Crimea with flimsy excuses like the one you're parroting. We're talking about a guy whose opposition is all dead or in jail. You're arguing for a murderous dictator. The only policies were the removal of requirement to teach Russian everywhere. It was a ridiculous excuse to go to war. You don't get Russian in your school let's bomb you and your neighbors. There was no Russian heritage discrimination but there was openness to the west which did make Putin nervous. Clinton adding countries to NATO is not Ukraine's fault and has absolutely nothing to do with them. The invasion had the opposite effect on Russia and shows how stupid Putin really is because now NATO is at his door. Had he not invaded things would have been better off for him.

sillystuff 4y ago
> You're arguing for a murderous dictator. I'm not arguing for anybody. You obviously have very strong feelings about this subject. But, please do not attribute to me positions I have not expressed. My actual positions (as stated above): War kills and maims people. Killing and maiming people should be avoided. Russia made statements about why they felt the need for war. Taking those statements at face value would have caused no harm if they were false-- we would simply be in the same place as we are today with war. Taking those statements at face value could have saved many Ukrainian and Russian lives if they were true and addressed. Russia's stated concerns have not been addressed in peace negotiations, so we do not know if war could have been avoided or if the war could be brought to an end sooner. Russians and Ukrainians are currently killing and maiming each other. The history of the situation is complicated-- there is more than the typical western narrative encompasses. Russia must bear responsibility for their decision to go to war. But, the US is possibly antagonistic toward negotiations. At a minimum, the US has not engaged in negotiations nor addressed Russia's stated concerns and thus threw away a potential opportunity to prevent bloodshed. US/NATO pumping weapons into Ukraine serves to extend the conflict (and the death count) before the inevitable negotiations to end the conflict. To summarize, I'd prefer if we made an effort to not kill people.
- invalidname 4y ago
  Russia lies. A lot. Why the hell go to the premise of taking anything they say at face value? There are multiple steps before going to war. Putin was looking for an excuse to go to war and also tried fabricating stuff like Nazis controlling Ukraine (which has a Jewish president) because he knew this is a flimsy excuse. Repeating this nonsense gives validity to a war criminal. > Russians and Ukrainians are currently killing and maiming each other. No. One side invaded the other. This isn't symmetric. > The history of the situation is complicated No. There's a lot of noise in terms of history. But people use it to mask simple facts. A dictator invaded a sovereign nation. Killed civilians who he claims to protect. The US isn't at fault in any way. You can't negotiate with a liar who violates agreements. Russia attacked US elections in a blatant way and explicitly instigated a policy of sabotage. There were plenty of opportunities along the way to de-escalate. But the US didn't escalate. It very explicitly stated early on that no soldiers will go into Ukraine. It made it hard for Ukraine to join NATO, etc. Putin violated the status quo. They arm Ukraine because the alternative would be the annihilation of the country. So far the Russian forces took over areas and forced migration into Russia, killed people in the streets, etc. These are terrible people. > To summarize, I'd prefer if we made an effort to not kill people. This is nonsense. A lot of effort was put into that. Unfortunately, sometimes the only thing you can do is stand up and protect your country. This is what the people of Ukraine are doing. Putin isn't giving them a choice. They have talks all the time. In the talks people literally got poisoned! You're perpetuating a false Russian narrative that has been discredited time and time again.