6 ms·

Everyone here is so incredibly focused on money as the primary motivator, which I guess given the thread question makes some sense. But I'd like to just put in

by dmje 4y ago

Everyone here is so incredibly focused on money as the primary motivator, which I guess given the thread question makes some sense. But I'd like to just put in a little word for money not being everything, and client type / work type actually being a really important part of the equation. HN is a forum where increasingly I see posts every single day about the high level of misery in tech / how can I get out of this rat race / high levels of stress / undervalued / etc etc. I charge £500 a day. It's not much compared to some of the rates on here, but I work with lovely, interesting clients in the non-profit sector. My clients love what they do and I do good work for them so they love what I do. I have long term, low stress, friendship-like relationships with my clients, not shouty / nasty / high stress ones. I've done this work for 12 years, and had to work with maybe a handful of assholes during that time. FWIW I think there is a "lower budget bar" under which demands are insane for the money being offered, and we should all avoid this work unless we actively want to take a race to the bottom. But - I think there is undoubtedly a "higher budget bar" over which the stress level and expectation is made exceedingly high. This (I would imagine; I don't know, I've worked in non profits my whole life) is probably also equated with sector - if you're in a FinTech environment I would imagine you're looking at high budgets but also an insane number of highly pressured assholes shouting at you all the time. What am I basically saying? I guess - yes, charge enough (and this is probably more than you think it should be) - but also, look at the bigger picture of your work / sector. Think about happiness, work-life balance, client motivations, etc - and use this to inform what you charge and how you charge for it. That'd be my advice.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>I charge £500 a day. It's not much compared to some of the rates on here 500GBP/day is still very good by European dev wage standards. You can't compare to American wages/rates.
- zer0tonin 4y ago
  It is pretty average for a contractor in Europe. Contractors/Freelancers have always been paid above normal wages, because the contracts offer more flexibility to the employers.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Depends on which market in Europe. Rates can vary wildly.
orangepurple 4y ago
Money is everything to me because I'm not getting younger and I don't want to toil forever. I stopped caring about almost everything except my growing family.
- dmje 4y ago
  I'm 50 and care about nothing apart from my family. That's why I want to be around for them by having a good work / life balance which for me means working as I've described. I can worry about the money when they've left home :-)
trhoad 4y ago
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but it's easy to say money isn't everything when you're already earning £120k/$140k pa.
- was_a_dev 4y ago
  Yeah I exhaled slightly when reading they're in the >97th percentile for UK salaries. Modest earnings
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    This is apples to oranges and therefore false. Contracting has much much more deductions from the base rate than salaries. At the very least, with 20 days (1 month) off, you start off with a 11/12 coefficient. Then there's buying your own benefits, dealing with your own accounting, i.e. maybe paying an accountant or otherwise investing the time to do it yourself, which in turn reduces the number of hours you have to actually, you know, contract. They aren't in the 97th percentile.
    - was_a_dev 4y ago
      Fair. Let's be realistic, or even conservative. 90th percentile? (£58k)
      - EddySchauHai 4y ago
        I think any contract developer will be on the 95%+ percentile. When I started contracting in my mid-20s I was in the UKs 1% for a 40 hour gig done from my bedroom desk. It’s pretty mental.
        was_a_dev 4y ago
        Yeah my points above all stand, despite people silently disagreeing. No issue with those salaries. With contract work you're providing a much need service. Just don't pretend those salaries are what they are.
joshmanders 4y ago
I get what you're saying, but I work to live, not live to work. My end game is to spend my time doing what I love with those I love and unfortunately, writing code for someone elses business is not what I love. It's traveling the world, hiking mountains, swimming with whales and dolphins, sitting on a swing set with my kid, taking my dog for walks. Money is my only motivation because I want to quit everything that makes money and only do stuff that doesn't make money but makes me happy.
- j45 4y ago
  5 years ago I’d say - Working to live is great. It makes one more well rounded and you discover you have other interests to pursue with time. As time goes on the cost of freedom is higher and higher. You might meet someone special and want to experience life together. That might lead to realizing the world might be better with little versions of her in it. In The last 2 years - My kids will be the only people who remember me when the day I no longer breathe, if I’m around for them now. I don’t want them to have to relearn the stuff I had to unnecessarily on my own and be in a position to lean into whatever their potential calls them to. Wealth moves from not just money, but to time and creating memories. If all my time is spent to get money it’s not worth it. Wealth as time is all there is. Since I’ve embraced this oddly the professional and product side of life has taken off even more.
j45 4y ago
Pricing according to the ability to pay and the value it generates is something that seems to make sense. There is no perfect universal formula. Everyone has different situations, backgrounds, variables to weight and scenarios to ensure. It’s good to advocate for balance because keeping score with money quickly can get hollow when Al your time and best energy is tanked. Ones pursuit of profit and purpose doesn’t have to be with min the same hour of activity at work. One can be optimized to feed the other. Surprisingly the world will pay atomically will for solving what appears to be a boring but very real problem. Solving these tries of problems can lead to interesting ones. If one some it might be more possible to work for larger rates based on their experience and give back to non profits at little to nothing, or over deliver value. It doesn’t seem important but within 5-10 years it becomes apparent that ppl on the self or startup path have to create their own retirement fund and healthcare plan not just for them. The more you can save the more you can have a say in what you do and don’t take on, and for how long.
dan-robertson 4y ago
One way of thinking about this is that you’re charging less for doing less work. Maybe that’s what you want (eg less stressful days). Another way to see it is that if you could work for some places you like less for £X per day, you could live off £500 per day and donate £(X-500) to charity (this is basically the argument that was popular 10 years or so ago that ambitious young people wanting to ‘do good’ should go and work in tech/finance to make a lot of money to give to charity instead of working for charities directly). So in some sense you’re choosing to instead donate £(X-500) per day to the nonprofits you work for. I guess if you like what they do then maybe it’s a reasonable choice for you.
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
From my experience in management consulting, it’s more industry related than rate related. Clients in finance tend to be assholes even when you are cheap. The field just tolerates it. Similarly, industrial customers are used to be put under a lot of pressure regarding costs and delays and will treat you as they are used to be treated. Here is my trick: if you want to work in a nice environment, choose a job in an environment known to be nice.
- wuschel 4y ago
  Now I am curious: what kind of environment have you experienced to be nice?
pakwa 4y ago
Probably not relevant to anything, but what do you do for your £500 a day? :)
ukoki 4y ago
I think it's tempting to think that higher day rates equate to longer hours and a less cordial and more stressful work environment, but this hasn't been my personal experience as my day rates have grown over the years. I think this is a combination of: * Your rates themselves are a signalling mechanism to clients of the level of expertise and professionalism you will bring -- how closely would you scrutinise the work of a plumber who quoted £100/hour compared to one asking for minimum wage? * You are filtering for clients that believe "quality comes at a price", a belief they likely apply in other areas as well. So you're more likely working with competant people who enjoy generous benefits, with managers who care about providing a pleasant working environment for their direct reports.
jalapenos 4y ago
It's interesting and positive that the top rated comment in this thread is one in the "money isn't everything vein". Programming has made many people so well-to-do that it resonates with them above all the pricing replies. And that is excellent, and speaks volumes about how effective our profession is at supporting comfortable lifestyles. But I'd like to say something close to my heart, that unless you've felt what a desperate lack of money does, it's hard to really understand why someone would be obsessed about it above all else. Even long after the problem is gone. Lack of money creates a visceral, chronic fear of death. It's not like "I'm about to be killed", but it's like a feeling of existential desperation. It makes you feel you're not guaranteed to be alive in the near future. It makes you feel you're "close to the earth". It is horrifying, and if you ever feel it you never forget it. And it transforms you and your thinking, often permanently. It's just something worth remembering. Being able to worry about money below all else is a luxury that many people will never have the fortune to understand.
- cutler 4y ago
  Agreed, especially the anticipation of a rent increase which you can't afford leaving you potentially homeless. Many in so-called affluent economies now live with this daily reality.

by dmje 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>I charge £500 a day. It's not much compared to some of the rates on here 500GBP/day is still very good by European dev wage standards. You can't compare to American wages/rates.

zer0tonin 4y ago
It is pretty average for a contractor in Europe. Contractors/Freelancers have always been paid above normal wages, because the contracts offer more flexibility to the employers.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Depends on which market in Europe. Rates can vary wildly.

orangepurple 4y ago

Money is everything to me because I'm not getting younger and I don't want to toil forever. I stopped caring about almost everything except my growing family.

dmje 4y ago
I'm 50 and care about nothing apart from my family. That's why I want to be around for them by having a good work / life balance which for me means working as I've described. I can worry about the money when they've left home :-)

trhoad 4y ago

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but it's easy to say money isn't everything when you're already earning £120k/$140k pa.

was_a_dev 4y ago
Yeah I exhaled slightly when reading they're in the >97th percentile for UK salaries. Modest earnings
- karamanolev 4y ago
  This is apples to oranges and therefore false. Contracting has much much more deductions from the base rate than salaries. At the very least, with 20 days (1 month) off, you start off with a 11/12 coefficient. Then there's buying your own benefits, dealing with your own accounting, i.e. maybe paying an accountant or otherwise investing the time to do it yourself, which in turn reduces the number of hours you have to actually, you know, contract. They aren't in the 97th percentile.
  - was_a_dev 4y ago
    Fair. Let's be realistic, or even conservative. 90th percentile? (£58k)
    - EddySchauHai 4y ago
      I think any contract developer will be on the 95%+ percentile. When I started contracting in my mid-20s I was in the UKs 1% for a 40 hour gig done from my bedroom desk. It’s pretty mental.
      - was_a_dev 4y ago
        Yeah my points above all stand, despite people silently disagreeing. No issue with those salaries. With contract work you're providing a much need service. Just don't pretend those salaries are what they are.

joshmanders 4y ago

I get what you're saying, but I work to live, not live to work. My end game is to spend my time doing what I love with those I love and unfortunately, writing code for someone elses business is not what I love. It's traveling the world, hiking mountains, swimming with whales and dolphins, sitting on a swing set with my kid, taking my dog for walks. Money is my only motivation because I want to quit everything that makes money and only do stuff that doesn't make money but makes me happy.

j45 4y ago
5 years ago I’d say - Working to live is great. It makes one more well rounded and you discover you have other interests to pursue with time. As time goes on the cost of freedom is higher and higher. You might meet someone special and want to experience life together. That might lead to realizing the world might be better with little versions of her in it. In The last 2 years - My kids will be the only people who remember me when the day I no longer breathe, if I’m around for them now. I don’t want them to have to relearn the stuff I had to unnecessarily on my own and be in a position to lean into whatever their potential calls them to. Wealth moves from not just money, but to time and creating memories. If all my time is spent to get money it’s not worth it. Wealth as time is all there is. Since I’ve embraced this oddly the professional and product side of life has taken off even more.

j45 4y ago

Pricing according to the ability to pay and the value it generates is something that seems to make sense. There is no perfect universal formula. Everyone has different situations, backgrounds, variables to weight and scenarios to ensure. It’s good to advocate for balance because keeping score with money quickly can get hollow when Al your time and best energy is tanked. Ones pursuit of profit and purpose doesn’t have to be with min the same hour of activity at work. One can be optimized to feed the other. Surprisingly the world will pay atomically will for solving what appears to be a boring but very real problem. Solving these tries of problems can lead to interesting ones. If one some it might be more possible to work for larger rates based on their experience and give back to non profits at little to nothing, or over deliver value. It doesn’t seem important but within 5-10 years it becomes apparent that ppl on the self or startup path have to create their own retirement fund and healthcare plan not just for them. The more you can save the more you can have a say in what you do and don’t take on, and for how long.

dan-robertson 4y ago

One way of thinking about this is that you’re charging less for doing less work. Maybe that’s what you want (eg less stressful days). Another way to see it is that if you could work for some places you like less for £X per day, you could live off £500 per day and donate £(X-500) to charity (this is basically the argument that was popular 10 years or so ago that ambitious young people wanting to ‘do good’ should go and work in tech/finance to make a lot of money to give to charity instead of working for charities directly). So in some sense you’re choosing to instead donate £(X-500) per day to the nonprofits you work for. I guess if you like what they do then maybe it’s a reasonable choice for you.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

From my experience in management consulting, it’s more industry related than rate related. Clients in finance tend to be assholes even when you are cheap. The field just tolerates it. Similarly, industrial customers are used to be put under a lot of pressure regarding costs and delays and will treat you as they are used to be treated. Here is my trick: if you want to work in a nice environment, choose a job in an environment known to be nice.

wuschel 4y ago
Now I am curious: what kind of environment have you experienced to be nice?

pakwa 4y ago

Probably not relevant to anything, but what do you do for your £500 a day? :)

ukoki 4y ago

I think it's tempting to think that higher day rates equate to longer hours and a less cordial and more stressful work environment, but this hasn't been my personal experience as my day rates have grown over the years. I think this is a combination of: * Your rates themselves are a signalling mechanism to clients of the level of expertise and professionalism you will bring -- how closely would you scrutinise the work of a plumber who quoted £100/hour compared to one asking for minimum wage? * You are filtering for clients that believe "quality comes at a price", a belief they likely apply in other areas as well. So you're more likely working with competant people who enjoy generous benefits, with managers who care about providing a pleasant working environment for their direct reports.

jalapenos 4y ago

It's interesting and positive that the top rated comment in this thread is one in the "money isn't everything vein". Programming has made many people so well-to-do that it resonates with them above all the pricing replies. And that is excellent, and speaks volumes about how effective our profession is at supporting comfortable lifestyles. But I'd like to say something close to my heart, that unless you've felt what a desperate lack of money does, it's hard to really understand why someone would be obsessed about it above all else. Even long after the problem is gone. Lack of money creates a visceral, chronic fear of death. It's not like "I'm about to be killed", but it's like a feeling of existential desperation. It makes you feel you're not guaranteed to be alive in the near future. It makes you feel you're "close to the earth". It is horrifying, and if you ever feel it you never forget it. And it transforms you and your thinking, often permanently. It's just something worth remembering. Being able to worry about money below all else is a luxury that many people will never have the fortune to understand.

cutler 4y ago
Agreed, especially the anticipation of a rent increase which you can't afford leaving you potentially homeless. Many in so-called affluent economies now live with this daily reality.