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God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything. People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honest

God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything. People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the stupidest things I have heard. Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can always do with more good programmers. However the truth is we need more of many, many types of people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. Not everyone wants to be a programming. Not everyone can be a programmer. Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track their budget in a basic Excel file. But I can't take anyone and teach them Excel to be a spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I know this from first hand experience :) What we need is an open, fair and free education system to encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the world.

yarpnird 4y ago
> Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.
- satysin 4y ago
  Depends on the crime, I know a few doctors and nurses that have criminal records. But I accept your point. However I was not talking about those with a criminal record. Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. Is it an option? Of course. Is it the solution for all? Hardly but it is often treated as one so people can say "look we told you to learn to code and gave you access to a computer and resources but you didn't do it so it's not my fault you're jobless". To me it just comes across as a cheap and lazy way to say they 'did something' and blame the individual when it didn't work out. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it :)
  - conductr 4y ago
    I think of it as an analogy or general advise. It speaks to a changing world where mining skills have no value but digital skills do. Nobody can say what solution is right for every individual effected by these types of issues. But, the advise given is meant to be illustrative that this group of folks has worthless skills (no other mines to go to) and needs complete training for something more relevant in the current economy where there are many pockets of opportunity.
  - Akronymus 4y ago
    > Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. And as soon as it was turned around on the very journalists advocating for that it was deemed bullying...
paulpauper 4y ago
What if those journalists had instead come out and said that miners are not smart enough to code. They would have gotten even more hate probably by the very same people. So you lose either way.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Are journalists smart enough to code? More relevantly, are they smart enough to accurately inform the general public about the topics they cover? The commonality of Gel-Mann amnesia suggests otherwise.
- satysin 4y ago
  Simple. Don't say either way. How often do we see "learn to code" as a solution to jobs that have gone away for whatever reason? Over the past ~15 years I've seen it almost everywhere as literally the only advertised option for people whose profession has vanished. All I am saying is I wish as much was invested into other re-training options as we've seen put into learn to code programmes.
zozbot234 4y ago
Teachers, doctors, nurses etc. can use code to simplify their jobs and make themselves more productive. Not everyone needs to be a professional coder, but being aware of what code is and how it works should absolutely be a basic skill. No different than reading or math.
- Test0129 4y ago
  I would be very curious how a doctor or nurse could use programming to improve their jobs. Aside from a conduit of fun brain teasers which may have some ancillary benefit...every doctor and nurse I know spends almost no time in front of a computer except for brief data entry. Actual real "medical" programming occurs by professional engineers in highly regulated environments (and for good reason). Teachers I could possibly see but even then much of this has been optimized away. If you lower the bar of "learning to code" to learning excel I'd tend to agree with you. No reason to hack together a set of python scripts to grade papers, and the actual useful work of generating random test questions, etc has been automated away by software nearly every school uses. The difference between reading, math, and programming is that reading and math are fundamental. Math teaches logical, methodical thinking. Reading teaches the ability to well...read. Programming on the other hand is a higher level abstraction of math. Mathematicians tend to become good programmers. To me, this would imply we simply need to teach more math. It's very simple to say "it should be a basic skill" but there are other, far more fundamental, skills we don't teach either. Why don't we teach machining or woodworking? For the average Joe these two would have infinitely more value both professionally and personally than learning how to fire up a terminal and write a basic python script. The problem that "learn to code" has, and the problem your suggestion has, is that even getting someone to "get" how to code is non-trivial. Once you move beyond the formulaic "here's how to put these pieces together to make a website" suddenly everyone gets lost. I've seen this not only in people I've attempted to mentor, but also being an interviewer at a large tech company regularly seeing code camp graduates coming from fields like teaching, food, etc. These people miss the point of the exact thing you suggest: programming is a conduit for productivity in an underlying field and "learning to code" is a means to an end and not the goal. There certainly are people "cut out to be programmers" and this societal shift to "everyone can be anything they want" has really disenfranchised a lot of people. We never want to talk about it because the idea life is fundamentally unfair is seen as taboo. But it is, and it is the reason code camps produce garbage in 80% of cases and the reason drop out rates in CS programs are so high. The high flying high school kid getting an $XXX,000 salary is an extreme edge cases promoted as a common case. The guy who automates half his job as a data entry clerk was probably fit for professional grade programming anyway. We are guilty of this perpetuation ourselves.
RickWolter 4y ago
Obviously not everyone wants to learn to code. I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that.The (possibly overused) advice to learn to code is prevalent because software is prevalent Ill repeat what ive said elsewhere...It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen. This isn't something Ive read, its something we've done over and over with mentees. I get that youre tired of that trite bit of advice, but its happening for a lot of people. There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.
- wanderingmind 4y ago
  Nothing pays close to SWE without going into significant debt and losing years in training. Any rational economic actor will do nothing but software in current economy.
- WhitneyLand 4y ago
  Rick your story is so inspirational, congratulations on how far you’ve made it and being able to help other people. Good to see you here in the community.
  - RickWolter 4y ago
    thank you for the kind words. I was really lucky to get another chance considering the severity of my mistakes. Helping others get their life on track seems the least I could do.
- satysin 4y ago
  Hi Rick, nice to see you here I was not expecting the subject of the piece to be here so that is pretty cool. > I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in [redacted] teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is open to all and I quite often have adults that have been convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to code!" messages that seem to be everywhere the past decade or so. Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across those I work with but across the whole country the figure is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it. > It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a professional programmer for near twenty years now and love it so much I give my time to others to help them see if they have the same love for programming as I do. I have taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s how to code that have gone on to have careers as developers. > With real commitment its very attainable. This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for whatever reason but many times they don't commit because they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it frustrating and would rather do something else. > There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We need them. > Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some. The point in my original reply was that in my experience the whole "learn to code!" thing is talked about as a solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind it. Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and [redacted] schools and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made higher up but from how I see things it is because it is cheap. Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the software needed is almost always free for education, etc. It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I know you know all this getting started with Python and OpenCourseWare after all. Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to code is very near zero and that is super attractive to schools. Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the way I do. I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)
Akronymus 4y ago
> People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Programming is truly fun for a very select group of people. (I count myself as one of those( But even then, as a job it is almost always miserable in some form. I encourage people to check it out if its for them, I dont think they should be gaslit into becoming programmers.
- squeaky-clean 4y ago
  Yeah I encourage lots of people to try coding as a hobby the same way I encourage everyone to learn an instrument. Do it! Have fun! But telling someone to learn to code as a career choice is only slightly less insulting than saying to learn guitar as a career choice.
Der_Einzige 4y ago
Be honest, this whole post could be summed up as "damn I hope the good times could continue for us and I don't want more competition".
- satysin 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion tbh. Every week I teach teenagers and adults that want to learn to code. Almost all because they want a career as a software developer. I don't see those learning to code as competition in the way you seem to think I do.
WesternWind 4y ago
Programming is a pathway to a middle class life for a lot of folks, but not everyone. But really the issue is that every job should be a pathway to a middle class life.

yarpnird 4y ago

> Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.

satysin 4y ago
Depends on the crime, I know a few doctors and nurses that have criminal records. But I accept your point. However I was not talking about those with a criminal record. Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. Is it an option? Of course. Is it the solution for all? Hardly but it is often treated as one so people can say "look we told you to learn to code and gave you access to a computer and resources but you didn't do it so it's not my fault you're jobless". To me it just comes across as a cheap and lazy way to say they 'did something' and blame the individual when it didn't work out. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it :)
- conductr 4y ago
  I think of it as an analogy or general advise. It speaks to a changing world where mining skills have no value but digital skills do. Nobody can say what solution is right for every individual effected by these types of issues. But, the advise given is meant to be illustrative that this group of folks has worthless skills (no other mines to go to) and needs complete training for something more relevant in the current economy where there are many pockets of opportunity.
- Akronymus 4y ago
  > Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. And as soon as it was turned around on the very journalists advocating for that it was deemed bullying...

paulpauper 4y ago

What if those journalists had instead come out and said that miners are not smart enough to code. They would have gotten even more hate probably by the very same people. So you lose either way.

zozbot234 4y ago
Are journalists smart enough to code? More relevantly, are they smart enough to accurately inform the general public about the topics they cover? The commonality of Gel-Mann amnesia suggests otherwise.
satysin 4y ago
Simple. Don't say either way. How often do we see "learn to code" as a solution to jobs that have gone away for whatever reason? Over the past ~15 years I've seen it almost everywhere as literally the only advertised option for people whose profession has vanished. All I am saying is I wish as much was invested into other re-training options as we've seen put into learn to code programmes.

zozbot234 4y ago

Teachers, doctors, nurses etc. can use code to simplify their jobs and make themselves more productive. Not everyone needs to be a professional coder, but being aware of what code is and how it works should absolutely be a basic skill. No different than reading or math.

Test0129 4y ago
I would be very curious how a doctor or nurse could use programming to improve their jobs. Aside from a conduit of fun brain teasers which may have some ancillary benefit...every doctor and nurse I know spends almost no time in front of a computer except for brief data entry. Actual real "medical" programming occurs by professional engineers in highly regulated environments (and for good reason). Teachers I could possibly see but even then much of this has been optimized away. If you lower the bar of "learning to code" to learning excel I'd tend to agree with you. No reason to hack together a set of python scripts to grade papers, and the actual useful work of generating random test questions, etc has been automated away by software nearly every school uses. The difference between reading, math, and programming is that reading and math are fundamental. Math teaches logical, methodical thinking. Reading teaches the ability to well...read. Programming on the other hand is a higher level abstraction of math. Mathematicians tend to become good programmers. To me, this would imply we simply need to teach more math. It's very simple to say "it should be a basic skill" but there are other, far more fundamental, skills we don't teach either. Why don't we teach machining or woodworking? For the average Joe these two would have infinitely more value both professionally and personally than learning how to fire up a terminal and write a basic python script. The problem that "learn to code" has, and the problem your suggestion has, is that even getting someone to "get" how to code is non-trivial. Once you move beyond the formulaic "here's how to put these pieces together to make a website" suddenly everyone gets lost. I've seen this not only in people I've attempted to mentor, but also being an interviewer at a large tech company regularly seeing code camp graduates coming from fields like teaching, food, etc. These people miss the point of the exact thing you suggest: programming is a conduit for productivity in an underlying field and "learning to code" is a means to an end and not the goal. There certainly are people "cut out to be programmers" and this societal shift to "everyone can be anything they want" has really disenfranchised a lot of people. We never want to talk about it because the idea life is fundamentally unfair is seen as taboo. But it is, and it is the reason code camps produce garbage in 80% of cases and the reason drop out rates in CS programs are so high. The high flying high school kid getting an $XXX,000 salary is an extreme edge cases promoted as a common case. The guy who automates half his job as a data entry clerk was probably fit for professional grade programming anyway. We are guilty of this perpetuation ourselves.

RickWolter 4y ago

Obviously not everyone wants to learn to code. I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that.The (possibly overused) advice to learn to code is prevalent because software is prevalent Ill repeat what ive said elsewhere...It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen. This isn't something Ive read, its something we've done over and over with mentees. I get that youre tired of that trite bit of advice, but its happening for a lot of people. There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some.

wanderingmind 4y ago
Nothing pays close to SWE without going into significant debt and losing years in training. Any rational economic actor will do nothing but software in current economy.
WhitneyLand 4y ago
Rick your story is so inspirational, congratulations on how far you’ve made it and being able to help other people. Good to see you here in the community.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  thank you for the kind words. I was really lucky to get another chance considering the severity of my mistakes. Helping others get their life on track seems the least I could do.
satysin 4y ago
Hi Rick, nice to see you here I was not expecting the subject of the piece to be here so that is pretty cool. > I dont think anyone mistakenly believes that Unfortunately many people do. I volunteer here in [redacted] teaching mostly teens the basics of programming but it is open to all and I quite often have adults that have been convinced they should know how to code by the "learn to code!" messages that seem to be everywhere the past decade or so. Many of these people get upset when they struggle beyond the basics which is probably 60-70% of people going by how many complete the course. I did wonder if perhaps I just suck as a teacher but comparing the numbers not just across those I work with but across the whole country the figure is the same. Just seems two thirds of people can't or don't have an interest to push passed the wall once they hit it. > It is a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. I 100% agree with you here. After all I myself have been a professional programmer for near twenty years now and love it so much I give my time to others to help them see if they have the same love for programming as I do. I have taught dozens of people from ~11 years old up to mid-40s how to code that have gone on to have careers as developers. > With real commitment its very attainable. This is a big point. It takes commitment. Many people can't or won't commit. Sometimes it is that they can't do it for whatever reason but many times they don't commit because they never had that spark which is clear you did. To them programming was boring. They didn't find it interesting solving some "silly" syntax issue instead they found it frustrating and would rather do something else. > There are a lot of people who have had their entires life changed through that skill. And that is awesome. Like I said in my first post I am very happy to see more good programmers enter the market. We need them. > Definitely not the solution for everyone, but it is the solution for some. The point in my original reply was that in my experience the whole "learn to code!" thing is talked about as a solution for everyone. What frustrates me is there is so much invested into the learn to code "solution" that I see hardly any other options with the same kind of drive behind it. Now I can't talk about prison education systems as I have no knowledge of them. But I do know UK and [redacted] schools and my personal opinion it is unfairly pushed over almost everything else. Why? I am not privy to the decisions made higher up but from how I see things it is because it is cheap. Computers are cheap, resources are almost all free or close to free (YouTube is free, books are cheap, etc), the software needed is almost always free for education, etc. It can be done pretty much anywhere you have a power socket and it doesn't require special single purpose hardware. I know you know all this getting started with Python and OpenCourseWare after all. Simply put the financial barrier for entry to learning to code is very near zero and that is super attractive to schools. Anyway my first comment wasn't in any way an attack on people learning to code. I apologise if you felt that it was and hopefully this reply better explains why I feel the way I do. I am glad that learning to code has had such a positive impact on your life and wish you success in the future :)

Akronymus 4y ago

> People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Programming is truly fun for a very select group of people. (I count myself as one of those( But even then, as a job it is almost always miserable in some form. I encourage people to check it out if its for them, I dont think they should be gaslit into becoming programmers.

squeaky-clean 4y ago
Yeah I encourage lots of people to try coding as a hobby the same way I encourage everyone to learn an instrument. Do it! Have fun! But telling someone to learn to code as a career choice is only slightly less insulting than saying to learn guitar as a career choice.

Der_Einzige 4y ago

Be honest, this whole post could be summed up as "damn I hope the good times could continue for us and I don't want more competition".

satysin 4y ago
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion tbh. Every week I teach teenagers and adults that want to learn to code. Almost all because they want a career as a software developer. I don't see those learning to code as competition in the way you seem to think I do.

WesternWind 4y ago

Programming is a pathway to a middle class life for a lot of folks, but not everyone. But really the issue is that every job should be a pathway to a middle class life.