9 ms·

I'd advise against following advice from individuals like this for many reasons, one to mention survivorship bias to basic things like being picked up by a publ

I'd advise against following advice from individuals like this for many reasons, one to mention survivorship bias to basic things like being picked up by a publishing house. Advice from people like this is often just kind of useless if not actively detrimental to your quality of life. You can do all the things stated here and fail. The reality is that the way the writing industry works it is a very selective and closed door process that does not allow a majority of those or even a minority into it's industry.

hirundo 4y ago
Don't listen to people who succeed at what you're trying to do because they're outliers? So listen to failures and wannabes instead? Or ignore advice period?
- HellsMaddy 4y ago
  Listen to me, I'm neither a failure nor an outlier, I am a non-writer. Completely unbiased, completely uninformed. My advice: write!
- watwut 4y ago
  Listen to both people who succeeded and who did not. You actually need to learn from failures too.
- Evenjos 4y ago
  Don't listen to idiots. But do listen to the people who sincerely tried and failed. Few people want to talk about failure. But I've been watching the publishing industry for a long time, and it's not as simple as pressing the "Publish" button and watching sales roll in. Algorithms have changed the way things work. Bots promote works that are already popular or trending. It's harder than ever for newbies to get noticed.
scioto 4y ago
If you ever read John Scalzi's story on how he got to where he is (mid-list author??), he frequently says that he got lucky. He posted his _Old Man's War_ story on his blog, and an editor saw it and threw money at him. By the time he made his big sale, he'd been writing for years. If you have six minutes to blow, go to his Audible page for his latest[1], scroll down to the video John Scalzi: My Story, and he talks about it. That said, he also says he likes to pay it forward by pushing budding authors when he can to spread the luck. -- [1] https://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-by-Bullet-Audiobook/B0B8387XQX https://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-by-Bullet-Audiobook/B0B838...
narrator 4y ago
Now that Amazon will give you 70% if you price under $10 and sell on Kindle, it's a whole new world for writers who want to release independently. If you put your book on Kindle Unlimited, you get paid by how many pages people read. Sure, you have to do all your marketing, but giving out free copies of your book for reviews is a low-cost way to bootstrap a following. Once you get a decent number of reviews and climb in the sales rank, the rest takes care of itself. Of course, your book has to be good, which is the very hard part. Since Kindle lets you read free samples, I've read some of the lower ranked stuff in the genre I write in and it's pretty awful. However, I've heard there are people who write in certain genres like erotica and write total trash, but they making a living at it anyway by targeting various niches.
JeremyReimer 4y ago
I'm a writer. What you've said here is basically correct, but I disagree with your conclusion. In 2009 I took basically the same path that Howey is proposing here. I started self-publishing on Amazon in 2011 and I've written five novels so far, and am working on a sixth. Obviously I did not experience anywhere near the success that Howey did. This may be due to luck, but I've read Wool and it's also a much better novel than anything I've written (so far!) So it's not always about luck. An amazingly good novel can sometimes generate its own luck. But my lack of success hasn't dissuaded me and I don't consider the journey I took in becoming a writer to have been wasted. On the contrary, it's been amazing every step of the way. I've learned so many things, met so many wonderful people, and even sold a couple of thousand books along the way, which isn't much, but it's not nothing either. And at the same time, I've been writing non-fiction articles for Ars Technica, which has been considerably more successful for me. (An example would be my article on the history of OS/2, or my history of the Amiga computer). These articles have been read and enjoyed by orders of magnitude more people, which is very satisfying. I guess what I'm saying is that there are more possibilities for being a writer than being a famous fiction author picked up by a major publishing house. There are all kinds of paths for writers to take. Success is never guaranteed, and if you want to be a writer you have to be realistic about this. But if you really want to be a writer, nothing can stop you. In fact, that's kind of the only prerequisite for becoming one. If you feel compelled to write, regardless of any success or rewards, you will keep doing it. At the very least, you will become a better writer. And if you become a better writer, it's almost inevitable that, at some point, somebody will notice. Don't expect to be famous. Expect to write.
- thenerdhead 4y ago
  Yeah but are you writing what you love to write or writing what the world pays you to write? Great writers can find jobs just about anywhere. The real question is whether or not you enjoy what you are writing.
  - JeremyReimer 4y ago
    I can honestly say that I love all the writing work I do. Every article I wrote for Ars Technica was a labor of love, even though I got paid. My novels are as well. I still have a day job (although I did write full-time for Ars for a couple of years) so this is a luxury I can afford. But I’m still happy to be able to do it. I would also posit that the only way to be successful as a writer is to write about things you love. If you try to chase popular topics or genres without loving them, this cynicism will show in your writing and it won’t be much fun to read.
dhosek 4y ago
Oh, ffs, I hate this idea that there is a monolithic writing industry with a closed-door process that’s meant to keep people out. It’s, to be honest, a load of bovine fecal matter. There are problems, to be sure. There’s a tendency to chase after the latest trend, to assume that something won’t sell because nothing like it has sold before, or to dump a pile of money on someone famous because they’re famous (Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff), but that isn’t some publishing conspiracy, that’s human nature. And to pick a well-worn example, Harry Potter was widely rejected before it was finally picked up and became a media franchise. But none of this was some sort of conspiracy. The fact of the matter is that publishing creative writing takes persistence and luck. Rare is the person who sends something out and gets a yes from the first place they sent it.¹ I’ve been through bios of over 5000 authors for the rankings that I publish at https://creativewritingmfa.info https://creativewritingmfa.info and many of the prize-winning stories/poems/essays were rejected multiple times before they were accepted, and these are presumably the best of their breed and are a small percentage of the nominated pieces. It’s comforting to tell yourself that you’re not getting published because they won’t let you into their “club,” but truth be told, the bigger problem is likely that your writing just isn’t good enough and needs more work. ⸻ 1. I keep stats on my own publications and of the 20 stories I’ve published to date, the lowest number of rejections a piece has received has been 3, the highest 67.² I've averaged 49 rejections for every acceptance over the last 16 years, but the past few years, that’s been closer to 25–28 as I’ve gotten better as a writer. 2. This most-rejected story got near-miss rejections from Granta and The Atlantic, both of which are highly prestigious publications.

hirundo 4y ago

Don't listen to people who succeed at what you're trying to do because they're outliers? So listen to failures and wannabes instead? Or ignore advice period?

HellsMaddy 4y ago
Listen to me, I'm neither a failure nor an outlier, I am a non-writer. Completely unbiased, completely uninformed. My advice: write!
watwut 4y ago
Listen to both people who succeeded and who did not. You actually need to learn from failures too.
Evenjos 4y ago
Don't listen to idiots. But do listen to the people who sincerely tried and failed. Few people want to talk about failure. But I've been watching the publishing industry for a long time, and it's not as simple as pressing the "Publish" button and watching sales roll in. Algorithms have changed the way things work. Bots promote works that are already popular or trending. It's harder than ever for newbies to get noticed.

scioto 4y ago

If you ever read John Scalzi's story on how he got to where he is (mid-list author??), he frequently says that he got lucky. He posted his _Old Man's War_ story on his blog, and an editor saw it and threw money at him. By the time he made his big sale, he'd been writing for years. If you have six minutes to blow, go to his Audible page for his latest[1], scroll down to the video John Scalzi: My Story, and he talks about it. That said, he also says he likes to pay it forward by pushing budding authors when he can to spread the luck. -- [1] https://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-by-Bullet-Audiobook/B0B8387XQX https://www.audible.com/pd/Travel-by-Bullet-Audiobook/B0B838...

narrator 4y ago

Now that Amazon will give you 70% if you price under $10 and sell on Kindle, it's a whole new world for writers who want to release independently. If you put your book on Kindle Unlimited, you get paid by how many pages people read. Sure, you have to do all your marketing, but giving out free copies of your book for reviews is a low-cost way to bootstrap a following. Once you get a decent number of reviews and climb in the sales rank, the rest takes care of itself. Of course, your book has to be good, which is the very hard part. Since Kindle lets you read free samples, I've read some of the lower ranked stuff in the genre I write in and it's pretty awful. However, I've heard there are people who write in certain genres like erotica and write total trash, but they making a living at it anyway by targeting various niches.

JeremyReimer 4y ago

I'm a writer. What you've said here is basically correct, but I disagree with your conclusion. In 2009 I took basically the same path that Howey is proposing here. I started self-publishing on Amazon in 2011 and I've written five novels so far, and am working on a sixth. Obviously I did not experience anywhere near the success that Howey did. This may be due to luck, but I've read Wool and it's also a much better novel than anything I've written (so far!) So it's not always about luck. An amazingly good novel can sometimes generate its own luck. But my lack of success hasn't dissuaded me and I don't consider the journey I took in becoming a writer to have been wasted. On the contrary, it's been amazing every step of the way. I've learned so many things, met so many wonderful people, and even sold a couple of thousand books along the way, which isn't much, but it's not nothing either. And at the same time, I've been writing non-fiction articles for Ars Technica, which has been considerably more successful for me. (An example would be my article on the history of OS/2, or my history of the Amiga computer). These articles have been read and enjoyed by orders of magnitude more people, which is very satisfying. I guess what I'm saying is that there are more possibilities for being a writer than being a famous fiction author picked up by a major publishing house. There are all kinds of paths for writers to take. Success is never guaranteed, and if you want to be a writer you have to be realistic about this. But if you really want to be a writer, nothing can stop you. In fact, that's kind of the only prerequisite for becoming one. If you feel compelled to write, regardless of any success or rewards, you will keep doing it. At the very least, you will become a better writer. And if you become a better writer, it's almost inevitable that, at some point, somebody will notice. Don't expect to be famous. Expect to write.

thenerdhead 4y ago
Yeah but are you writing what you love to write or writing what the world pays you to write? Great writers can find jobs just about anywhere. The real question is whether or not you enjoy what you are writing.
- JeremyReimer 4y ago
  I can honestly say that I love all the writing work I do. Every article I wrote for Ars Technica was a labor of love, even though I got paid. My novels are as well. I still have a day job (although I did write full-time for Ars for a couple of years) so this is a luxury I can afford. But I’m still happy to be able to do it. I would also posit that the only way to be successful as a writer is to write about things you love. If you try to chase popular topics or genres without loving them, this cynicism will show in your writing and it won’t be much fun to read.

dhosek 4y ago

Oh, ffs, I hate this idea that there is a monolithic writing industry with a closed-door process that’s meant to keep people out. It’s, to be honest, a load of bovine fecal matter. There are problems, to be sure. There’s a tendency to chase after the latest trend, to assume that something won’t sell because nothing like it has sold before, or to dump a pile of money on someone famous because they’re famous (Bob Honey Who Just Do Stuff), but that isn’t some publishing conspiracy, that’s human nature. And to pick a well-worn example, Harry Potter was widely rejected before it was finally picked up and became a media franchise. But none of this was some sort of conspiracy. The fact of the matter is that publishing creative writing takes persistence and luck. Rare is the person who sends something out and gets a yes from the first place they sent it.¹ I’ve been through bios of over 5000 authors for the rankings that I publish at https://creativewritingmfa.info https://creativewritingmfa.info and many of the prize-winning stories/poems/essays were rejected multiple times before they were accepted, and these are presumably the best of their breed and are a small percentage of the nominated pieces. It’s comforting to tell yourself that you’re not getting published because they won’t let you into their “club,” but truth be told, the bigger problem is likely that your writing just isn’t good enough and needs more work. ⸻ 1. I keep stats on my own publications and of the 20 stories I’ve published to date, the lowest number of rejections a piece has received has been 3, the highest 67.² I've averaged 49 rejections for every acceptance over the last 16 years, but the past few years, that’s been closer to 25–28 as I’ve gotten better as a writer. 2. This most-rejected story got near-miss rejections from Granta and The Atlantic, both of which are highly prestigious publications.