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If you allow unions to consolidate and exert unlimited political power, companies need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented. Fu

If you allow unions to consolidate and exert unlimited political power, companies need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented. Full stop. Does that work as well, or is this one of those "one way street" deals in your mind? When have companies "consolidated and exerted unlimited political power"? Did they end up facing "anti-trust" laws? get broken up as a result? > All of the things you complain about happen on the business side of the table. Are you sure about that? here's the head of the UAW being placed on leave for fraud: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/uaw-president-leave-corruption-investigation-1.5345689 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/uaw-president-leave-corrupt... Let me guess, the "business" made him do it? I have no idea what point you are making with Azure?

Spooky23 4y ago
Companies seem to be able to organize themselves quite well to achieve their business and political goals. If it’s bad for an autoworker to buy an “import”, surely a Microsoft employee should be shopping at Walmart or some other Microsoft partner, not Amazon. Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? And why would the company? Amazon fires blue collar workers for peeing too long, why is the stewardship of their dues relevant at all? If anything, they benefit from compromised union leadership. Not everyone is a FAANG SWE who can get a new gig right away. Some of the proles benefit from protection from the capricious decisions of their employer.
- kennend3 4y ago
  > If it’s bad for an autoworker to buy an “import”, surely a Microsoft employee should be shopping at Walmart or some other Microsoft partner, not Amazon. that really is a stretch don't you think? Perhaps they are buying imports because they know the quality of the product they are building? Perhaps they know the "imports" are better and will last longer? Does Azure offer socks? what if the Azure VP wanted socks for their kids You seem to think an Azure VP shopping at Amazon (which only compete on the cloud computing space) is the same as a Unionized autoworker buying a car from a non-union shop???? > Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? you are the one who said corruption only happens on the "business side of the table".. now you are shown this is incorrect your new position is "why do i care"?
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    I never said that. You’re stuck on whatever you think that you’re missing the forest for the trees. If companies are virtual people can band together and seek collective action, so should actual people. Governance of unions, professional associations, etc are another, irrelevant matter.
    - kennend3 4y ago
      so you didn't write: Spooky23 2 hours ago | root | parent | next [–] If you allow companies to consolidate and exert unlimited political power, workers need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented. Full stop. All of the things you complain about happen on the business side of the table. P " Clearly you wrote about "business side of the table" when corruption exits on both sides of the table. Often the Unions corruption is rather bad as well (teamsters and organized crime anyone?) you confuse me, now we are talking about "forest for the trees?" Statements like this always seem like things people throw out there when they are unable to build a compelling case?
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        Read it in context dude. Try again, or better yet, move on.
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  > Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? Because in non-right to work states, the workers are forced to contribute part of their paycheck to the UAW. So "the UAW guy defrauded his organization" should really read "the UAW guy defrauded the employees he was supposed to represent."
Apocryphon 4y ago
> companies need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented They did. It was a dirty business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Alliance People died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster
- kennend3 4y ago
  First of all, if it was unclear i was being sarcastic with my response back to the OP. I took what he wrote, replaced "union" with "company" and asked if this made sense too? One thing about "fairness" is it should run in both directions. The point is that there needs to be a better balance of power between both unions (which have literally bankrupt companies) and corporations (which have done really shitty things like "company towns").
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Your sarcasm failed because the corporations literally did band together in anti-union activities and used their disproportionate power to attach workers. This was a case of your metaphor backfiring on your point. Unions may or may not have bankrupted companies, but did they ever engage in the same level of violence, physical intimidation, or criminal behavior as these union busting alliances?
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
      > Unions may or may not have bankrupted companies, but did they ever engage in the same level of violence, physical intimidation, or criminal behavior as these union busting alliances? I like unions, but... yes? Pretending that they haven't is ridiculous. There's a reason that people are complaining that police officers can act (nearly) as horrible/brutal as they want to and fact (close to) no consequences. That reason is their union. There's also video of union members physically and mentally attacking people for crossing picket lines, etc. When people get power, the bad eggs start causing problems for everyone else. And they also tend to gain power, so wind up making decisions for "the organization". This is true of both companies _and_ unions.
hypersoar 4y ago
>> All of the things you complain about happen on the business side of the table. > Are you sure about that? > here's the head of the UAW being placed on leave for fraud: Corporate executives commit fraud and malfeasance all the time on a scale commensurate with their greater power and wealth. They rarely face serious consequences for it. The Wells Fargo fake accounts scandal broke over 5 years ago and hasn't resulted in criminal charges for anyone. Purdue Pharma essentially murdered tens of thousands of people, and the end result for the Sackler family will be that they won't get to keep all of the billions they made off of it. And, of course, the 2008 financial crash. I could go on.
- kennend3 4y ago
  Let me guess, unions would stop the corporate corruption? How are the two issues (corporate corruption and unions) related? Because i was asked to point out corrupt unions therefor by showing that corrupt corporations exists they "cancel out" one another? I'd look at US laws to determine why no one was ever prosecuted. In each of the examples you provided it is clearly US crimes and the US justice systems failures? FWIW, the police are investigating Jerry Dias : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unifor-jerry-dias-1.6408674 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unifor-jerry-dias-1.6...

Spooky23 4y ago

Companies seem to be able to organize themselves quite well to achieve their business and political goals. If it’s bad for an autoworker to buy an “import”, surely a Microsoft employee should be shopping at Walmart or some other Microsoft partner, not Amazon. Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? And why would the company? Amazon fires blue collar workers for peeing too long, why is the stewardship of their dues relevant at all? If anything, they benefit from compromised union leadership. Not everyone is a FAANG SWE who can get a new gig right away. Some of the proles benefit from protection from the capricious decisions of their employer.

kennend3 4y ago
> If it’s bad for an autoworker to buy an “import”, surely a Microsoft employee should be shopping at Walmart or some other Microsoft partner, not Amazon. that really is a stretch don't you think? Perhaps they are buying imports because they know the quality of the product they are building? Perhaps they know the "imports" are better and will last longer? Does Azure offer socks? what if the Azure VP wanted socks for their kids You seem to think an Azure VP shopping at Amazon (which only compete on the cloud computing space) is the same as a Unionized autoworker buying a car from a non-union shop???? > Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? you are the one who said corruption only happens on the "business side of the table".. now you are shown this is incorrect your new position is "why do i care"?
- Spooky23 4y ago
  I never said that. You’re stuck on whatever you think that you’re missing the forest for the trees. If companies are virtual people can band together and seek collective action, so should actual people. Governance of unions, professional associations, etc are another, irrelevant matter.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    so you didn't write: Spooky23 2 hours ago | root | parent | next [–] If you allow companies to consolidate and exert unlimited political power, workers need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented. Full stop. All of the things you complain about happen on the business side of the table. P " Clearly you wrote about "business side of the table" when corruption exits on both sides of the table. Often the Unions corruption is rather bad as well (teamsters and organized crime anyone?) you confuse me, now we are talking about "forest for the trees?" Statements like this always seem like things people throw out there when they are unable to build a compelling case?
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      Read it in context dude. Try again, or better yet, move on.
Cupertino95014 4y ago
> Why do you care about how the UAW guy defrauded his organization? Because in non-right to work states, the workers are forced to contribute part of their paycheck to the UAW. So "the UAW guy defrauded his organization" should really read "the UAW guy defrauded the employees he was supposed to represent."

Apocryphon 4y ago

> companies need to be able to self-organize to ensure their interests are represented They did. It was a dirty business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Alliance People died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Hall_disaster

kennend3 4y ago
First of all, if it was unclear i was being sarcastic with my response back to the OP. I took what he wrote, replaced "union" with "company" and asked if this made sense too? One thing about "fairness" is it should run in both directions. The point is that there needs to be a better balance of power between both unions (which have literally bankrupt companies) and corporations (which have done really shitty things like "company towns").
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Your sarcasm failed because the corporations literally did band together in anti-union activities and used their disproportionate power to attach workers. This was a case of your metaphor backfiring on your point. Unions may or may not have bankrupted companies, but did they ever engage in the same level of violence, physical intimidation, or criminal behavior as these union busting alliances?
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    > Unions may or may not have bankrupted companies, but did they ever engage in the same level of violence, physical intimidation, or criminal behavior as these union busting alliances? I like unions, but... yes? Pretending that they haven't is ridiculous. There's a reason that people are complaining that police officers can act (nearly) as horrible/brutal as they want to and fact (close to) no consequences. That reason is their union. There's also video of union members physically and mentally attacking people for crossing picket lines, etc. When people get power, the bad eggs start causing problems for everyone else. And they also tend to gain power, so wind up making decisions for "the organization". This is true of both companies _and_ unions.

hypersoar 4y ago

>> All of the things you complain about happen on the business side of the table. > Are you sure about that? > here's the head of the UAW being placed on leave for fraud: Corporate executives commit fraud and malfeasance all the time on a scale commensurate with their greater power and wealth. They rarely face serious consequences for it. The Wells Fargo fake accounts scandal broke over 5 years ago and hasn't resulted in criminal charges for anyone. Purdue Pharma essentially murdered tens of thousands of people, and the end result for the Sackler family will be that they won't get to keep all of the billions they made off of it. And, of course, the 2008 financial crash. I could go on.

kennend3 4y ago
Let me guess, unions would stop the corporate corruption? How are the two issues (corporate corruption and unions) related? Because i was asked to point out corrupt unions therefor by showing that corrupt corporations exists they "cancel out" one another? I'd look at US laws to determine why no one was ever prosecuted. In each of the examples you provided it is clearly US crimes and the US justice systems failures? FWIW, the police are investigating Jerry Dias : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unifor-jerry-dias-1.6408674 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unifor-jerry-dias-1.6...