4 ms·

Coming from Germany they are fine.

christophilus 4y ago
Yeah. Germany got it right (as far as I can see). Anyone know why the situation seems so different there vs here in the US?
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  AFAIK German unions are very diverse and workers can pick and choose which one they want to join, vs the US where it's typically a 1:1 relationship between workplace and union.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Generally, yes. Detauls a bit more complex so. There are industry specific unions for employees, e.g. IG Metall for everything electronics and hardware or Verdi for public services (covering a staggering amount of jobs). On the othet side of the table you have associations of employers for the same industries. This makes, overall, negotiations straight forward, unions negotiate with employer associations and the results are then adopted, with regional modifications, acroos Germany. Of course employers are free to quit thosr associations, there are also dedicated agreements betweens unions and specific employers, usually covering things like extended working hours and so. And we have specialized unions, e.g. Cockpit for pilots or the equivalant for train conductors. The latter is funny, because there is more than one union representing those at DB. On a more general note, all employees benefit from the conditions negotiated between employers and unions (if there are any that is), regardless of union memebership. Legally, unions obly negotiate for members, technically rmployers don't make a difference. All that of course up to a certain salary sealing, everything above is outside union territory.
  - arlcode 4y ago
    At the core of the German labor participation system lies the works council which is an (employee) elected board that represents them on a factory/office level (varies). Large companies also elect a company wide works council which in the case of publicly listed companies is part of the board. (50% of the votes with a shareholder friendly tie breaking mechanism). Works councils are traditionally dominated by unions but not always and there isn't a membership requirement to be represented. Unions offer industry sector wide representation and also negotiate collective agreements that companies agree to (more or less) willingly and of course they coordinate strikes if need be.
- ahartmetz 4y ago
  I don't know why it's different, but unions and employers are not terribly contrarian in Germany. For example, I have seen (edit: a works council, related to unions but not the same) argue for better quality control because they were fearing quality trouble, which would be bad for the whole company including employees. Unions also don't oppose laying off really underperforming employees (but might require a generous severance package) or automation, as long as affected people can be moved around instead of laid off.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    Its like the saying that any form of government works well if everyone is altruistic. Maybe Germans or even western Europeans as a whole are just more altruistic than the US? Individualism and distrust of power are pretty core to the mindset of a decent portion of the US going back to colonial days. I'm not suggesting blindly trusting power is a great idea, but perhaps thinking that way, then acquiring power makes you more likely to abuse it.
    - Tarsul 4y ago
      I think "narrative" is probably the most underrated element in economic theory, probably because it's hard to measure. But it's easy to see: Many American CEOs appear to be only in it for themselves, and as you say US culture is very much individualistic: Always care for yourself first. Compare this to e.g. Japan where kids learn from very early age that everything you do, you do for the community. With these completely different mind-sets the style of cooperation is very different as well. As a German I can also say that unions and Betriebsräte are not only looking for the employees but also looking that the business has a future. And that's a common ground with the employers, which is why there is not this kind of animosity as in the US. Also, as I said: Even managers in Germany know that the success of the company is a group effort.
      - galangalalgol 4y ago
        Managers in the US largely are concerned about the next quarter earnings so they get their full bonus. This at the sacrifice of the business in the long term because they will have moved on. And unions usually span many states even support multiple sectors of industry, so the failure of a single business often doesn't seem to matter to the union.
- cynusx 4y ago
  The unions are present at the board level after a certain size and therefore have more empathy for a companies plight and objectives. They are more demanding when the company does well, but willing to chip in when the company is in trouble.

Yeah. Germany got it right (as far as I can see). Anyone know why the situation seems so different there vs here in the US?

candiddevmike 4y ago
AFAIK German unions are very diverse and workers can pick and choose which one they want to join, vs the US where it's typically a 1:1 relationship between workplace and union.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Generally, yes. Detauls a bit more complex so. There are industry specific unions for employees, e.g. IG Metall for everything electronics and hardware or Verdi for public services (covering a staggering amount of jobs). On the othet side of the table you have associations of employers for the same industries. This makes, overall, negotiations straight forward, unions negotiate with employer associations and the results are then adopted, with regional modifications, acroos Germany. Of course employers are free to quit thosr associations, there are also dedicated agreements betweens unions and specific employers, usually covering things like extended working hours and so. And we have specialized unions, e.g. Cockpit for pilots or the equivalant for train conductors. The latter is funny, because there is more than one union representing those at DB. On a more general note, all employees benefit from the conditions negotiated between employers and unions (if there are any that is), regardless of union memebership. Legally, unions obly negotiate for members, technically rmployers don't make a difference. All that of course up to a certain salary sealing, everything above is outside union territory.
- arlcode 4y ago
  At the core of the German labor participation system lies the works council which is an (employee) elected board that represents them on a factory/office level (varies). Large companies also elect a company wide works council which in the case of publicly listed companies is part of the board. (50% of the votes with a shareholder friendly tie breaking mechanism). Works councils are traditionally dominated by unions but not always and there isn't a membership requirement to be represented. Unions offer industry sector wide representation and also negotiate collective agreements that companies agree to (more or less) willingly and of course they coordinate strikes if need be.
ahartmetz 4y ago
I don't know why it's different, but unions and employers are not terribly contrarian in Germany. For example, I have seen (edit: a works council, related to unions but not the same) argue for better quality control because they were fearing quality trouble, which would be bad for the whole company including employees. Unions also don't oppose laying off really underperforming employees (but might require a generous severance package) or automation, as long as affected people can be moved around instead of laid off.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  Its like the saying that any form of government works well if everyone is altruistic. Maybe Germans or even western Europeans as a whole are just more altruistic than the US? Individualism and distrust of power are pretty core to the mindset of a decent portion of the US going back to colonial days. I'm not suggesting blindly trusting power is a great idea, but perhaps thinking that way, then acquiring power makes you more likely to abuse it.
  - Tarsul 4y ago
    I think "narrative" is probably the most underrated element in economic theory, probably because it's hard to measure. But it's easy to see: Many American CEOs appear to be only in it for themselves, and as you say US culture is very much individualistic: Always care for yourself first. Compare this to e.g. Japan where kids learn from very early age that everything you do, you do for the community. With these completely different mind-sets the style of cooperation is very different as well. As a German I can also say that unions and Betriebsräte are not only looking for the employees but also looking that the business has a future. And that's a common ground with the employers, which is why there is not this kind of animosity as in the US. Also, as I said: Even managers in Germany know that the success of the company is a group effort.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      Managers in the US largely are concerned about the next quarter earnings so they get their full bonus. This at the sacrifice of the business in the long term because they will have moved on. And unions usually span many states even support multiple sectors of industry, so the failure of a single business often doesn't seem to matter to the union.
cynusx 4y ago
The unions are present at the board level after a certain size and therefore have more empathy for a companies plight and objectives. They are more demanding when the company does well, but willing to chip in when the company is in trouble.