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I'm not going to engage the question of whether or not it was morally or tactically correct. This forum and the western public in general are not mature enough

I'm not going to engage the question of whether or not it was morally or tactically correct. This forum and the western public in general are not mature enough for that conversation. I am not having that conversation. My statement is limited to the fact that the energy crisis is a simple and proximate result of the ongoing sanctions and not peak oil, climate change, or corporate greed.

sidlls 4y ago
This forum doesn’t attract a large number of people with the expertise to have the conversation. The non-western public isn’t any more mature than the western public.
- wikitopian 4y ago
  Fair point.
djohnston 4y ago
I think you're underestimating the willingness of people to suffer financial hardship this winter to divorce themselves of Russian energy. People in the West really don't like dictators invading their neighbors, and certainly there's a long standing distaste of Russia generally. While people are also blaming corporate greed for the price crisis, everyone is well aware that the sanctions are causing pain for both parties. There's no political or social support for going back into Putin's arms, so here we are.
- wikitopian 4y ago
  You must be very confident with your calculation, as a miscalculation would empower and embolden domestic political factions that have been at the periphery of western politics for generations.
  - djohnston 4y ago
    Putin's conviction that the West was filled with spoiled brats who would kowtow when it got cold is the more impactful miscalculation.
- bequanna 4y ago
  > I think you're underestimating the willingness of people to suffer financial hardship this winter to divorce themselves of Russian energy. Are you sure it will be just one winter? In general, Europe is not great at: 1. Moving fast 2. Agreeing on and completing big projects.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    When people are dying, red tape can be trimmed down a little. COVID is nothing if not proof of that.
- wikitopian 4y ago
  The infants, children, and frail who are most imperiled by this plan to freeze them to death on purpose don't have equal access to the internet debate over whether it's worth it to do that.
  - djohnston 4y ago
    Mmm, well the frail certainly do, I'll agree with you on infants not having internet access though. I guess we'll have to see if infants are freezing to death in the flats of London this winter. My guess is probably not.
EliRivers 4y ago
Not mature enough. We're mature enough to know that if someone's argument is "you can't handle the truth" they should be taken about as seriously as the film I'm quoting.
- wikitopian 4y ago
  Then I have a task for you. Try to handle the truth that the west cannot geostrategically survive Russia becoming China's backyard. Look directly at that truth and let me know if and when you've handled it.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    I mean, that sounds pretty obvious to me. I’m no geopolitical expert so I cannot picture what the world looks like in this scenario, but it would definitely be bad. On the other hand, if the Ukraine war and related political stresses prove sufficient, we may actually see Russia split apart. That would make it so that China no longer has a single throat to choke with respect to Russia. It would likely have great knock-on effects with respect to nuclear MAD balance worldwide, since Russia has thus far been US’s largest rival there.
    - wikitopian 4y ago
      As a purely hypothetical, counterfactual mind game, how would you adapt your position if Russia were winning the ground war, economically stable, and firmly behind both Putin and the war?
      - selfhoster11 4y ago
        I don’t know what to think of this scenario, other than that it has very strong parallels to the German invasion of 1939. I’d feel horrified, helpless and powerless, coupled with some mixture of: - “damn, it’s a shame they couldn’t hold out for longer” - “at least it’s not my own country” - “my home country is just next door, so I sure hope they’ll stop at Ukraine and don’t go any further yet” - “I’m so lucky I moved abroad and live on the other end of the continent away from all this”
multiplegeorges 4y ago
Your opening line: > Europe made a *major tactical error* Your follow-up: > I'm not going to engage the question of whether or not it was morally or *tactically* correct. I mean, you already have.
- wikitopian 4y ago
  True. I made my own tactical error it appears. I had a good run with this account.
mupuff1234 4y ago
Out of curiosity, which societies do you think are mature enough to discuss such things?
- wikitopian 4y ago
  China had a mature domestic conversation about it and decided that the proper course was to refrain from taking a side. The Pope also made a thoughtful contribution, acknowledging that the matter is far more complicated than western media suggests, while decrying the bloodshed and calling for diplomacy.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    China’s domestic conversation is limited to what The Party will permit. Calling it “mature” is…misleading at best, because it’s an incomplete, sanitized discourse under the threat of retribution for expressing the wrong sentiment.
    - wikitopian 4y ago
      Everybody in America who doesn't have the state department's line on the war is subject to censorship and retribution. They're just less honest about it here.
      - sidlls 4y ago
        This is misleading if not outright false. Roughly half the country doesn’t have the state department’s line on war and regularly voices opinions as such. They do so without any state backed retribution or widespread media cancellation. What we do have is a strongly access-based media propaganda machine that tries very hard to push the narrative. But comparing what goes on in the US to what the conditions are in China is just invalid in almost every way.

sidlls 4y ago

This forum doesn’t attract a large number of people with the expertise to have the conversation. The non-western public isn’t any more mature than the western public.

wikitopian 4y ago
Fair point.

djohnston 4y ago

I think you're underestimating the willingness of people to suffer financial hardship this winter to divorce themselves of Russian energy. People in the West really don't like dictators invading their neighbors, and certainly there's a long standing distaste of Russia generally. While people are also blaming corporate greed for the price crisis, everyone is well aware that the sanctions are causing pain for both parties. There's no political or social support for going back into Putin's arms, so here we are.

wikitopian 4y ago
You must be very confident with your calculation, as a miscalculation would empower and embolden domestic political factions that have been at the periphery of western politics for generations.
- djohnston 4y ago
  Putin's conviction that the West was filled with spoiled brats who would kowtow when it got cold is the more impactful miscalculation.
bequanna 4y ago
> I think you're underestimating the willingness of people to suffer financial hardship this winter to divorce themselves of Russian energy. Are you sure it will be just one winter? In general, Europe is not great at: 1. Moving fast 2. Agreeing on and completing big projects.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  When people are dying, red tape can be trimmed down a little. COVID is nothing if not proof of that.
wikitopian 4y ago
The infants, children, and frail who are most imperiled by this plan to freeze them to death on purpose don't have equal access to the internet debate over whether it's worth it to do that.
- djohnston 4y ago
  Mmm, well the frail certainly do, I'll agree with you on infants not having internet access though. I guess we'll have to see if infants are freezing to death in the flats of London this winter. My guess is probably not.

EliRivers 4y ago

Not mature enough. We're mature enough to know that if someone's argument is "you can't handle the truth" they should be taken about as seriously as the film I'm quoting.

wikitopian 4y ago
Then I have a task for you. Try to handle the truth that the west cannot geostrategically survive Russia becoming China's backyard. Look directly at that truth and let me know if and when you've handled it.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  I mean, that sounds pretty obvious to me. I’m no geopolitical expert so I cannot picture what the world looks like in this scenario, but it would definitely be bad. On the other hand, if the Ukraine war and related political stresses prove sufficient, we may actually see Russia split apart. That would make it so that China no longer has a single throat to choke with respect to Russia. It would likely have great knock-on effects with respect to nuclear MAD balance worldwide, since Russia has thus far been US’s largest rival there.
  - wikitopian 4y ago
    As a purely hypothetical, counterfactual mind game, how would you adapt your position if Russia were winning the ground war, economically stable, and firmly behind both Putin and the war?
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      I don’t know what to think of this scenario, other than that it has very strong parallels to the German invasion of 1939. I’d feel horrified, helpless and powerless, coupled with some mixture of: - “damn, it’s a shame they couldn’t hold out for longer” - “at least it’s not my own country” - “my home country is just next door, so I sure hope they’ll stop at Ukraine and don’t go any further yet” - “I’m so lucky I moved abroad and live on the other end of the continent away from all this”

multiplegeorges 4y ago

Your opening line: > Europe made a *major tactical error* Your follow-up: > I'm not going to engage the question of whether or not it was morally or *tactically* correct. I mean, you already have.

wikitopian 4y ago
True. I made my own tactical error it appears. I had a good run with this account.

mupuff1234 4y ago

Out of curiosity, which societies do you think are mature enough to discuss such things?

wikitopian 4y ago
China had a mature domestic conversation about it and decided that the proper course was to refrain from taking a side. The Pope also made a thoughtful contribution, acknowledging that the matter is far more complicated than western media suggests, while decrying the bloodshed and calling for diplomacy.
- sidlls 4y ago
  China’s domestic conversation is limited to what The Party will permit. Calling it “mature” is…misleading at best, because it’s an incomplete, sanitized discourse under the threat of retribution for expressing the wrong sentiment.
  - wikitopian 4y ago
    Everybody in America who doesn't have the state department's line on the war is subject to censorship and retribution. They're just less honest about it here.
    - sidlls 4y ago
      This is misleading if not outright false. Roughly half the country doesn’t have the state department’s line on war and regularly voices opinions as such. They do so without any state backed retribution or widespread media cancellation. What we do have is a strongly access-based media propaganda machine that tries very hard to push the narrative. But comparing what goes on in the US to what the conditions are in China is just invalid in almost every way.