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Man. I (CISSP, CISA), 20 years of experience, everything from development to dev management to sales and marketing to finance to fundraising, the whole shebang,

Man. I (CISSP, CISA), 20 years of experience, everything from development to dev management to sales and marketing to finance to fundraising, the whole shebang, do ISO27001 ISMS’s and coach through certifications… for $70/hr. But then, my clients are based in the U.K., where technology is still generally seen as worthless.

jll29 4y ago
That's what a (Master-level) plumber charges per hour in Germany. By offering such discounted rates, people consider you 'less valuable' a priori. I have indeed heard anti-"IT" sentiments in the UK, where managers often come from outside disciplines (e.g. "politics, philosophy and economics" type of oxbridge degrees). Some of these people adjust quickly and pick up technical skills naturally, whereas others couldn't insert a 9 V block battery into a toy without a YouTube video after a decade of "IT" exposure. But they also do not know what something is worth without a clear explanation, so your value is bound by your ability to articulate it.
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  Fair. Thank you. You’ve just inspired me to fire off a round of emails announcing a 500% rate increase, listing the pretty significant accomplishments I have achieved for each client, and underlining the point that their businesses would likely not exist were it not for my support over the many years I have worked with them. I don’t exaggerate - many of them would never have got off the ground without me dragging them through the startup thorns and driving their first few years of technical sales. Either they’ll like it, or I’ll just quit technology, as the resentment just keeps growing.
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    If you scare off 80% of your recurring clients, you've drastically lowered your workload without penalty. If you scare off just 50% of your recurring clients, you've halved your workload and are making more money. The downside is if you scare off more than 80% of your recurring clients.
    - orzig 4y ago
      Unless there is a massive recession, I would consider scaring off more than 80% an opportunity to spend time prospecting for better clients. I can’t speak for the UK, but I really suspect you can find them. Also don’t forget that some fraction of the clients who balk at the increase from their anchor-bias price will come back to you after they see the low quality they get from other vendors at that price. Just be gracious when they leave.
- cosmodisk 4y ago
  I work in the UK and it's a fair estimate that a good percentage of senior managers haven't got a clue when it comes to IT and technology in general. Having said that, people aren't necessarily stupid: if the pitch is right, they would adopt the solution and pay decent consulting rates. The biggest problem is that both groups do struggle to meet each other.
bubblehack3r 4y ago
Sounds like it is less technical correct? I find that there are a lot of auditing firms out there willing to do compliance work for cheap therefor bringing down the prices (still not super low). Technical auditing and training in cyber security was always a kind of niche that allows you to charge more.
- madaxe_again 4y ago
  No, I typically end up filling the roles of CTO, CISO - I can advise, implement, whatever, on virtually any stack. It’s just that in the U.K., technology skills have little to no value.
  - eertami 4y ago
    There are definitely companies in the UK that will pay competitive rates for tech. $70/hr is lower than the median contracting rates for the UK, and I'd be suspicious if someone with 20 years experience was that cheap. I'd expect at minimum to be paying 1000 GBP/day.
    - madaxe_again 4y ago
      I had 15 years of experience when I last updated my rates - and I chronically undervalue myself. I’m responsible for the better part of a billion pounds of revenue, without exaggeration, across my clients, over the decades. Part of the issue I’ve faced is that I usually start working with folks when they’re 2-3 people, and I grow them - but my rates end up stuck at the 2-3 people company level, not at the 1000+ person company level that they’ve mostly become. I also consistently manage to get gipped out of equity, as I’m always “just madaxe”, who humbly grinds away and doesn’t feel right taking a slice of someone else’s pie.
      - orzig 4y ago
        Have you considered finding somebody to act as your “talent agent“? I don’t know exactly how this would work, but with so much money being left on the table I think it makes a ton of sense to be creative. I totally understand how awkward it can be to ask for more, but if part of the block is your own personality, there must be someone out there who would have less of a problem asking for what you deserve. The ROI would almost certainly be huge regardless of their cut.
aantix 4y ago
You have to get out of Europe. For whatever reason, Europeans just don’t seem to value software engineering and it shows. Great engineers. Zero money to show for it.
- ehnto 4y ago
  Venture Capital and FANG pay obscene money because their business models can afford to, they just happen to be powered by software. The actual work of software development isn't somehow worth more to society than your average white collar job, at least in my opinion. It's just another job, and it would be better for the world if the pay came down rather than everywhere get inflated, so that software could thrive in other markets, not just the tech bubbles. Perhaps not the right forum to be preaching for that, and it's certainly not in my best interest either, but that's how I see it.
  - acjacobson 4y ago
    Their business models can afford to pay a lot because these companies generate that much cash. They drive that much cash because software can be highly leveraged (whereas plumbing cannot). Having salaries come down to means shifting where the profits are distributed and allowing the company owners and investors to capture more in comparison to the employees. I don't see how this is better?
    - ehnto 4y ago
      It's still not great, but I am thinking of the negative externalities of tying up all software developers in tech bubbles, and having such a highly inflated class of worker in your cities. Taxing those profits more readily might be one way to make the value from these insanely profitable software plays be more fairly distributed across society.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    In order for pay to come down it must be inflated first so that people are motivated to saturate the open positions.
swader999 4y ago
I've looked at UK rates and salaries over the years and could never understand why they are so low.

jll29 4y ago

That's what a (Master-level) plumber charges per hour in Germany. By offering such discounted rates, people consider you 'less valuable' a priori. I have indeed heard anti-"IT" sentiments in the UK, where managers often come from outside disciplines (e.g. "politics, philosophy and economics" type of oxbridge degrees). Some of these people adjust quickly and pick up technical skills naturally, whereas others couldn't insert a 9 V block battery into a toy without a YouTube video after a decade of "IT" exposure. But they also do not know what something is worth without a clear explanation, so your value is bound by your ability to articulate it.

madaxe_again 4y ago
Fair. Thank you. You’ve just inspired me to fire off a round of emails announcing a 500% rate increase, listing the pretty significant accomplishments I have achieved for each client, and underlining the point that their businesses would likely not exist were it not for my support over the many years I have worked with them. I don’t exaggerate - many of them would never have got off the ground without me dragging them through the startup thorns and driving their first few years of technical sales. Either they’ll like it, or I’ll just quit technology, as the resentment just keeps growing.
- dsr_ 4y ago
  If you scare off 80% of your recurring clients, you've drastically lowered your workload without penalty. If you scare off just 50% of your recurring clients, you've halved your workload and are making more money. The downside is if you scare off more than 80% of your recurring clients.
  - orzig 4y ago
    Unless there is a massive recession, I would consider scaring off more than 80% an opportunity to spend time prospecting for better clients. I can’t speak for the UK, but I really suspect you can find them. Also don’t forget that some fraction of the clients who balk at the increase from their anchor-bias price will come back to you after they see the low quality they get from other vendors at that price. Just be gracious when they leave.
cosmodisk 4y ago
I work in the UK and it's a fair estimate that a good percentage of senior managers haven't got a clue when it comes to IT and technology in general. Having said that, people aren't necessarily stupid: if the pitch is right, they would adopt the solution and pay decent consulting rates. The biggest problem is that both groups do struggle to meet each other.

bubblehack3r 4y ago

Sounds like it is less technical correct? I find that there are a lot of auditing firms out there willing to do compliance work for cheap therefor bringing down the prices (still not super low). Technical auditing and training in cyber security was always a kind of niche that allows you to charge more.

madaxe_again 4y ago
No, I typically end up filling the roles of CTO, CISO - I can advise, implement, whatever, on virtually any stack. It’s just that in the U.K., technology skills have little to no value.
- eertami 4y ago
  There are definitely companies in the UK that will pay competitive rates for tech. $70/hr is lower than the median contracting rates for the UK, and I'd be suspicious if someone with 20 years experience was that cheap. I'd expect at minimum to be paying 1000 GBP/day.
  - madaxe_again 4y ago
    I had 15 years of experience when I last updated my rates - and I chronically undervalue myself. I’m responsible for the better part of a billion pounds of revenue, without exaggeration, across my clients, over the decades. Part of the issue I’ve faced is that I usually start working with folks when they’re 2-3 people, and I grow them - but my rates end up stuck at the 2-3 people company level, not at the 1000+ person company level that they’ve mostly become. I also consistently manage to get gipped out of equity, as I’m always “just madaxe”, who humbly grinds away and doesn’t feel right taking a slice of someone else’s pie.
    - orzig 4y ago
      Have you considered finding somebody to act as your “talent agent“? I don’t know exactly how this would work, but with so much money being left on the table I think it makes a ton of sense to be creative. I totally understand how awkward it can be to ask for more, but if part of the block is your own personality, there must be someone out there who would have less of a problem asking for what you deserve. The ROI would almost certainly be huge regardless of their cut.

aantix 4y ago

You have to get out of Europe. For whatever reason, Europeans just don’t seem to value software engineering and it shows. Great engineers. Zero money to show for it.

ehnto 4y ago
Venture Capital and FANG pay obscene money because their business models can afford to, they just happen to be powered by software. The actual work of software development isn't somehow worth more to society than your average white collar job, at least in my opinion. It's just another job, and it would be better for the world if the pay came down rather than everywhere get inflated, so that software could thrive in other markets, not just the tech bubbles. Perhaps not the right forum to be preaching for that, and it's certainly not in my best interest either, but that's how I see it.
- acjacobson 4y ago
  Their business models can afford to pay a lot because these companies generate that much cash. They drive that much cash because software can be highly leveraged (whereas plumbing cannot). Having salaries come down to means shifting where the profits are distributed and allowing the company owners and investors to capture more in comparison to the employees. I don't see how this is better?
  - ehnto 4y ago
    It's still not great, but I am thinking of the negative externalities of tying up all software developers in tech bubbles, and having such a highly inflated class of worker in your cities. Taxing those profits more readily might be one way to make the value from these insanely profitable software plays be more fairly distributed across society.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  In order for pay to come down it must be inflated first so that people are motivated to saturate the open positions.

swader999 4y ago

I've looked at UK rates and salaries over the years and could never understand why they are so low.