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I find this shift to paid, online code editors and IDEs very dystopian. The last thing I want to do is rely on a proprietary non-free tool that I need internet

I find this shift to paid, online code editors and IDEs very dystopian. The last thing I want to do is rely on a proprietary non-free tool that I need internet to access, can not only gather telemetry about my usage, but also all my code… At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. For me that line is already crossed.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. Why do I need to decide that? I’m just trying write some fun code. It’s all open source and meant to be looked at anyway.
- ilovecaching 4y ago
  And that’s exactly how dystopias are created. People give away their privacy feeling like they have nothing to hide, up until the point that they really need it back when it becomes a tool of oppression and espionage, but by then it’s already too late. Corporations love to downplay these risks and make it seem like avoiding their road map to vendor lock in and proprietary, subscription based software is for people wearing tin foil hats. There are certain areas where using proprietary software is too difficult and improvements are needed. I don’t advocate for a Stallman like approach. All I am saying is there are enough great open source tools out there that you don’t need to pay for a proprietary editor at the very least. There’s also a bit of hypocrisy at play when you care about making your own projects free and open source, but you don’t want to support the developers building free and open source tools by using their projects.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > it’s already too late Too late for… what? What do you think is going to happen? JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? > hypocrisy at play Wow there’s no hypocrisy. I’ve got no moral obligation to support your open source project just because mine is open source. Hypocrisy is telling people to do something and doing another yourself. Given I haven’t told anyone to do anything, where is the hypocrisy? You’re the only person telling anyone to do anything.
    - ilovecaching 4y ago
      > JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? You think this is hyperbole, but companies lobby for unfair and anti-consumer, anti-privacy laws all the time. You live in a world with a weekend and reasonable working conditions because workers banded together and fought against corporations to buy those things for you. Don’t be naive. Corporations do what is best for their bottom line. > telling anyone to do anything I am explaining to you why it’s in your own self interest to support free and open source software and think of it as a community rather than a label for a project. Corporations don’t need you to side with them, they have money and lobbyists, advocate for your fellow volunteer devs instead.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        This is way off the deep end as a response to a company offering a tool that nobody has to use if they don’t want to. > I am explaining to you why it’s in your own self interest That’s for your opinion of my own interests. JetBrains don’t tell me what I should do, or tell me that I don’t know my own interests, or make moral judgements against me, only people like you do that.
        ilovecaching 4y ago
        Why would a corporation make a judgement against you when you’re advocating for them?
        4y ago
pjmlp 4y ago
Developers have bills to pay and the return to timesharing days seems to be only way to force people to actually pay for the work of others, just like in every other profession. Indeed, the line has been crossed, free beer is empty.
dehrmann 4y ago
The only things here that concern a business using the product are price point and if there's an offramp in case it's discontinued. Business are used to paying for tools, have internet connectivity with at least three nines of availability, don't care that a vendor is measuring tool usage, and are satisfied by the contract that says how their code can be used. Even at an individual level, people were paying for Turbo Pascal in the 80s and 90s.

chrisseaton 4y ago

> At some point people have to decide that privacy and freedom are more important than some level of convenience. Why do I need to decide that? I’m just trying write some fun code. It’s all open source and meant to be looked at anyway.

ilovecaching 4y ago
And that’s exactly how dystopias are created. People give away their privacy feeling like they have nothing to hide, up until the point that they really need it back when it becomes a tool of oppression and espionage, but by then it’s already too late. Corporations love to downplay these risks and make it seem like avoiding their road map to vendor lock in and proprietary, subscription based software is for people wearing tin foil hats. There are certain areas where using proprietary software is too difficult and improvements are needed. I don’t advocate for a Stallman like approach. All I am saying is there are enough great open source tools out there that you don’t need to pay for a proprietary editor at the very least. There’s also a bit of hypocrisy at play when you care about making your own projects free and open source, but you don’t want to support the developers building free and open source tools by using their projects.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > it’s already too late Too late for… what? What do you think is going to happen? JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? > hypocrisy at play Wow there’s no hypocrisy. I’ve got no moral obligation to support your open source project just because mine is open source. Hypocrisy is telling people to do something and doing another yourself. Given I haven’t told anyone to do anything, where is the hypocrisy? You’re the only person telling anyone to do anything.
  - ilovecaching 4y ago
    > JetBrains are going to lobby for a law preventing local development? You think this is hyperbole, but companies lobby for unfair and anti-consumer, anti-privacy laws all the time. You live in a world with a weekend and reasonable working conditions because workers banded together and fought against corporations to buy those things for you. Don’t be naive. Corporations do what is best for their bottom line. > telling anyone to do anything I am explaining to you why it’s in your own self interest to support free and open source software and think of it as a community rather than a label for a project. Corporations don’t need you to side with them, they have money and lobbyists, advocate for your fellow volunteer devs instead.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      This is way off the deep end as a response to a company offering a tool that nobody has to use if they don’t want to. > I am explaining to you why it’s in your own self interest That’s for your opinion of my own interests. JetBrains don’t tell me what I should do, or tell me that I don’t know my own interests, or make moral judgements against me, only people like you do that.
      - ilovecaching 4y ago
        Why would a corporation make a judgement against you when you’re advocating for them?
        4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago

Developers have bills to pay and the return to timesharing days seems to be only way to force people to actually pay for the work of others, just like in every other profession. Indeed, the line has been crossed, free beer is empty.

dehrmann 4y ago

The only things here that concern a business using the product are price point and if there's an offramp in case it's discontinued. Business are used to paying for tools, have internet connectivity with at least three nines of availability, don't care that a vendor is measuring tool usage, and are satisfied by the contract that says how their code can be used. Even at an individual level, people were paying for Turbo Pascal in the 80s and 90s.