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Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felo

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? When media corporations started laying off journalists in droves a few years later, the journalists did not find "Learn to code" suggestions useful or even funny. A more general solution to reduce recidivism should probably consist of two initiatives: 1) Educate felons when they're in prison. It doesn't have to be programming. It can be a craft, something academic, programming (if they feel like it) or some other skill. Whatever. 2) Reform the prison system, so inmates are treated as humans. E.g. with private corporations running prisons in the US, they have a strong motivation to create "recurring guests". Contrast this with e.g. prisons in Scandinavia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IepJqxRCZY) that have the lowest rates of recidivism. We know how to reduce recidivism. It is not an easy "learn to code" exercise. But are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories?

paulpauper 4y ago
This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017. maybe this is what they were talking about https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering-shows-challenges-of-teaching-coal-miners-to-code/ https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...
- ejb999 4y ago
  >>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. Then I guess you really didn't look to hard: https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... snip: "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code."
  - kodah 4y ago
    Didn't even know Joe Biden did it, but Hillary Clinton did it too and it's what spawned the "#learn2code" hashtag on Twitter. It just got nastier from there.
  - lostboomerang 4y ago
    Just to add a small sample of mainstream media (Wired, NYT, NPR) running similar articles: https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1090080758126075904 https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/10900807581260759...
  - paulpauper 4y ago
    But that came later .I am referring 2017 when this became a meme. Also Biden is not a journalist.
- RickWolter 4y ago
  coincidentally at Underdog Devs we took in some of the students from that failed project. It was called Mined Mines. A few still made it later and became software devs, but the majority didnt work out.
whydoyoucare 4y ago
Regarding #2 - while I am all for reforming the US prison system, a direct comparison of US (prison) failure with Scandinavian (prison) success is unfair. It also risks creating misguided reforms, without properly understanding and addressing the social, economic, historical and geographical gaps between the two countries.
- lostboomerang 4y ago
  You and @KBeyo are absolutely right. It is two different countries and very different cultures. Just modeling US prisons on Scandinavian ones is not a solution. I could even imagine it making things worse in the short-term (a banal example would be "so the prisoners in Norwegian prisons have access to knives in the kitchen they roam freely, let's try that in San Quentin"...) But I think we could start looking at the incentives the American prison system creates while also addressing the social issues that seems to be the root of a lot of the challenges. It is not easy and I can imagine it taking a century to solve unfortunately.
  - nulbyte 4y ago
    I don't think there was a suggestion to model prisons in the U.S. after others in Scandanavia, only a comparison to point out that if others have found a solution to recidivism that works in their society, we should be able to find one that works in ours.
KBeyo 4y ago
I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred to within some circles, justice involved individuals. The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it’s really about working on mental health and the underlying reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not experienced much of a « normal » family life or friendships that promote personal growth, or mentorship. On top of that, when many are released they have nothing. So, imagine trying to stay employed for a week when you have nowhere to live (especially hard to rent a place also when you have a record[1]. Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed. [1] I recently spoke in front of the Colorado Senate concerning Assembly Bill 99 which will auto-erase the records of non-violent offenders in the state with some outcomes being that they can more easily find employment and rent places to live.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  There should be free transitionary housing on-prem on-site with the prison. You still get free housing and food and you’re not monitored / can come and go as you please. But it gives you a stable address and base of operations from which you build your new life. This isn’t halfway house which are dorms - you literally get your own space. I also have wondered whether probation officers have a positive or negative impact overall on recidivism. It feels like forcing people to have an additional stress layer that can send them back to prison on top of everything else isn’t actually helpful.
  - legerdemain 4y ago
    > You still get free housing and food In almost all US states, prison stays aren't free. The costs are often similar to a multi-year hotel stay.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  > Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed. The current "justice" system is a huge jobs program all around, and it is predicated on a persistently large mass of criminals who scare the crap out of the public. If they go away, so do cops, lawyers, prison jobs, and all the ancillary positions which feed off them. Society needs to own up to this fact and figure out what to do with all those people, especially the ones who live in rural areas which are completely dependent on prisons. I really feel the economics are what keep mass incarceration going year after year, no matter how many stories get written about it, or how awful everyone agrees it is.
satysin 4y ago
God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything. People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the stupidest things I have heard. Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can always do with more good programmers. However the truth is we need more of many, many types of people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. Not everyone wants to be a programming. Not everyone can be a programmer. Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track their budget in a basic Excel file. But I can't take anyone and teach them Excel to be a spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I know this from first hand experience :) What we need is an open, fair and free education system to encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the world.
- yarpnird 4y ago
  > Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.
  - satysin 4y ago
    Depends on the crime, I know a few doctors and nurses that have criminal records. But I accept your point. However I was not talking about those with a criminal record. Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. Is it an option? Of course. Is it the solution for all? Hardly but it is often treated as one so people can say "look we told you to learn to code and gave you access to a computer and resources but you didn't do it so it's not my fault you're jobless". To me it just comes across as a cheap and lazy way to say they 'did something' and blame the individual when it didn't work out. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it :)
    - conductr 4y ago
      I think of it as an analogy or general advise. It speaks to a changing world where mining skills have no value but digital skills do. Nobody can say what solution is right for every individual effected by these types of issues. But, the advise given is meant to be illustrative that this group of folks has worthless skills (no other mines to go to) and needs complete training for something more relevant in the current economy where there are many pockets of opportunity.
RickWolter 4y ago
I agree with much of what you said. You've also missed the point if you are referring to the non-profit Underdog Devs, which helps the formerly incarcerated become developers, with your bootstraps comment. If we could become software devs "by our own bootstraps" there would be no need for an Underdog Devs. Thats the point, support is needed. Overall I agree with you though, learning to code is not some panacea to cure recidivism. It is however a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> "Life’s Not Fair". "I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ > are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories? I think what the US first needs is a general cultural shift towards crime and criminals. I don't want to generalize too much, but the general attitude is that criminals are barely human monsters, and that every bad thing that happens for the rest of your life is "don't do the crime then!!!111" You know, stuff like this.[1] And don't even get me started on things like "At $249 per day, prison stays leave ex-inmates deep in debt" from last week.[2] Funny how such an allegedly Christian nation doesn't seem to understand forgiveness. Guess I didn't read the Bible right shrug. Things are changing, slowly, but there's still a long road ahead. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/why-do-we-still-put-kids-in-shackles-when-they-go-to-trial/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642
rufus_foreman 4y ago
>> Educate felons when they're in prison That's dangerous. I know people who went to prison. We want educated ex-felons, what you might get is educated felons. >> We know how to reduce recidivism Do we? Again, I know criminals. They're hard core. A guy says he's gonna shoot up meth every day until he dies, he's going to finance that any way he needs to, what is the known way to reduce that recidivism?
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  I legitimately can't tell if this post was written facetiously, what's your alternative? because the alternative of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society. He's not advocating that we teach lock picking 101 for chr##-sake. But it's OK because you "know criminals" so naturally that extrapolates to all criminals in perpetuity throughout the universe.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    >> the alternative of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society These are my friends that I'm talking about. They don't want to be, will never be, and never could be if they wanted to, productive members of society. What's your alternative? I can sure fire guarantee you that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society, no matter what happens. So what happens to them? Seriously, you're making me defend meth addicts. Christ.
    - quindarius 4y ago
      *SARCASM ALERT >> These are my friends that I'm talking about. They don't want to be, will never be, and never could be if they wanted to, productive members of society. So right, we should’ve nipped it in the butt and cut them out of preschool. ;)

paulpauper 4y ago

This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017. maybe this is what they were talking about https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering-shows-challenges-of-teaching-coal-miners-to-code/ https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/dev-bootcamp-shuttering...

ejb999 4y ago
>>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. Then I guess you really didn't look to hard: https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/476391-biden-tells-coal-miners-to-learn-to-code/ https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... snip: "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code."
- kodah 4y ago
  Didn't even know Joe Biden did it, but Hillary Clinton did it too and it's what spawned the "#learn2code" hashtag on Twitter. It just got nastier from there.
- lostboomerang 4y ago
  Just to add a small sample of mainstream media (Wired, NYT, NPR) running similar articles: https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1090080758126075904 https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/10900807581260759...
- paulpauper 4y ago
  But that came later .I am referring 2017 when this became a meme. Also Biden is not a journalist.
RickWolter 4y ago
coincidentally at Underdog Devs we took in some of the students from that failed project. It was called Mined Mines. A few still made it later and became software devs, but the majority didnt work out.

whydoyoucare 4y ago

Regarding #2 - while I am all for reforming the US prison system, a direct comparison of US (prison) failure with Scandinavian (prison) success is unfair. It also risks creating misguided reforms, without properly understanding and addressing the social, economic, historical and geographical gaps between the two countries.

lostboomerang 4y ago
You and @KBeyo are absolutely right. It is two different countries and very different cultures. Just modeling US prisons on Scandinavian ones is not a solution. I could even imagine it making things worse in the short-term (a banal example would be "so the prisoners in Norwegian prisons have access to knives in the kitchen they roam freely, let's try that in San Quentin"...) But I think we could start looking at the incentives the American prison system creates while also addressing the social issues that seems to be the root of a lot of the challenges. It is not easy and I can imagine it taking a century to solve unfortunately.
- nulbyte 4y ago
  I don't think there was a suggestion to model prisons in the U.S. after others in Scandanavia, only a comparison to point out that if others have found a solution to recidivism that works in their society, we should be able to find one that works in ours.

KBeyo 4y ago

I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred to within some circles, justice involved individuals. The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it’s really about working on mental health and the underlying reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not experienced much of a « normal » family life or friendships that promote personal growth, or mentorship. On top of that, when many are released they have nothing. So, imagine trying to stay employed for a week when you have nowhere to live (especially hard to rent a place also when you have a record[1]. Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed. [1] I recently spoke in front of the Colorado Senate concerning Assembly Bill 99 which will auto-erase the records of non-violent offenders in the state with some outcomes being that they can more easily find employment and rent places to live.

vlovich123 4y ago
There should be free transitionary housing on-prem on-site with the prison. You still get free housing and food and you’re not monitored / can come and go as you please. But it gives you a stable address and base of operations from which you build your new life. This isn’t halfway house which are dorms - you literally get your own space. I also have wondered whether probation officers have a positive or negative impact overall on recidivism. It feels like forcing people to have an additional stress layer that can send them back to prison on top of everything else isn’t actually helpful.
- legerdemain 4y ago
  > You still get free housing and food In almost all US states, prison stays aren't free. The costs are often similar to a multi-year hotel stay.
erdos4d 4y ago
> Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed. The current "justice" system is a huge jobs program all around, and it is predicated on a persistently large mass of criminals who scare the crap out of the public. If they go away, so do cops, lawyers, prison jobs, and all the ancillary positions which feed off them. Society needs to own up to this fact and figure out what to do with all those people, especially the ones who live in rural areas which are completely dependent on prisons. I really feel the economics are what keep mass incarceration going year after year, no matter how many stories get written about it, or how awful everyone agrees it is.

satysin 4y ago

God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything. People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the stupidest things I have heard. Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can always do with more good programmers. However the truth is we need more of many, many types of people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. Not everyone wants to be a programming. Not everyone can be a programmer. Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track their budget in a basic Excel file. But I can't take anyone and teach them Excel to be a spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I know this from first hand experience :) What we need is an open, fair and free education system to encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the world.

yarpnird 4y ago
> Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. All of which having a criminal record disqualifies one from.
- satysin 4y ago
  Depends on the crime, I know a few doctors and nurses that have criminal records. But I accept your point. However I was not talking about those with a criminal record. Like in the comment I was replying to where learn to code programmes were seen as the "solution" for coal miners whose mines were closed. Is it an option? Of course. Is it the solution for all? Hardly but it is often treated as one so people can say "look we told you to learn to code and gave you access to a computer and resources but you didn't do it so it's not my fault you're jobless". To me it just comes across as a cheap and lazy way to say they 'did something' and blame the individual when it didn't work out. Just my opinion of course, you don't have to agree with it :)
  - conductr 4y ago
    I think of it as an analogy or general advise. It speaks to a changing world where mining skills have no value but digital skills do. Nobody can say what solution is right for every individual effected by these types of issues. But, the advise given is meant to be illustrative that this group of folks has worthless skills (no other mines to go to) and needs complete training for something more relevant in the current economy where there are many pockets of opportunity.

RickWolter 4y ago

I agree with much of what you said. You've also missed the point if you are referring to the non-profit Underdog Devs, which helps the formerly incarcerated become developers, with your bootstraps comment. If we could become software devs "by our own bootstraps" there would be no need for an Underdog Devs. Thats the point, support is needed. Overall I agree with you though, learning to code is not some panacea to cure recidivism. It is however a legit path to a rewarding job which is open to those without degrees and who might have felonies on record. Since starting Underdog Devs Ive seen it over and over. With real commitment its very attainable. We have many success stories which seem like outliers, however they consistently happen.

Beltalowda 4y ago

> "Life’s Not Fair". "I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03bOrvlAyeQ > are the US willing to make the changes necessary to create meaningful impact on the rates of recidivism - or shall we continue to be fed "pull yourself up by the bootstraps! We found one guy who did it, and so can you!" stories? I think what the US first needs is a general cultural shift towards crime and criminals. I don't want to generalize too much, but the general attitude is that criminals are barely human monsters, and that every bad thing that happens for the rest of your life is "don't do the crime then!!!111" You know, stuff like this.[1] And don't even get me started on things like "At $249 per day, prison stays leave ex-inmates deep in debt" from last week.[2] Funny how such an allegedly Christian nation doesn't seem to understand forgiveness. Guess I didn't read the Bible right shrug. Things are changing, slowly, but there's still a long road ahead. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/why-do-we-still-put-kids-in-shackles-when-they-go-to-trial/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/08/... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32621642

rufus_foreman 4y ago

>> Educate felons when they're in prison That's dangerous. I know people who went to prison. We want educated ex-felons, what you might get is educated felons. >> We know how to reduce recidivism Do we? Again, I know criminals. They're hard core. A guy says he's gonna shoot up meth every day until he dies, he's going to finance that any way he needs to, what is the known way to reduce that recidivism?

throwaway675309 4y ago
I legitimately can't tell if this post was written facetiously, what's your alternative? because the alternative of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society. He's not advocating that we teach lock picking 101 for chr##-sake. But it's OK because you "know criminals" so naturally that extrapolates to all criminals in perpetuity throughout the universe.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  >> the alternative of giving them no education is almost a sure fire guarantee that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society These are my friends that I'm talking about. They don't want to be, will never be, and never could be if they wanted to, productive members of society. What's your alternative? I can sure fire guarantee you that they'll be ill-equipped to be able to get a job with the potential to become a productive member of society, no matter what happens. So what happens to them? Seriously, you're making me defend meth addicts. Christ.
  - quindarius 4y ago
    *SARCASM ALERT >> These are my friends that I'm talking about. They don't want to be, will never be, and never could be if they wanted to, productive members of society. So right, we should’ve nipped it in the butt and cut them out of preschool. ;)