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> What difference does it make if they cast another non-Italian actor to play a role? Who said anything about being Italian? I've only quoted the author words

> What difference does it make if they cast another non-Italian actor to play a role? Who said anything about being Italian? I've only quoted the author words (Collodi) The fairy is pale white not because she is a white person, but because she's pure. Pale white skin is not an Italian trait, so I don't understand what Italianness has to do with anything. If anything, the fact that she is pale white makes her obviously non-italian, because she's better than all the other characters that try to deceive and corrupt Pinocchio. EDIT: fixed wording

sirshmooey 4y ago
> The fairy is pale white not because she is white, but because she's pure. Curious equivocation there.
- krapp 4y ago
  Unfortunately that's really how Tolkien's mythology tends to work. White skin is associated with purity, darker skin with corruption and evil (or at least, between the two, "civilized" and "uncivilized".) It's a trope that's carried on into sci-fi (particularly Star Trek, where the more animalistic or violent races also tend to be darker - see the Klingons who get portrayed as darker-skinned and more aggressive with each iteration) and related high-fantasy properties like D&D.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    There are plenty of counter examples within Star Trek of patently evil or aggressive characters and races being humanoid with light skin. This is purely your own projection.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > White skin is associated with purity, darker skin with corruption it's the oldest metaphor in the world it's light vs darkness, like white magic and black magic. Heaven is light, hell is darkness. Nobody sees "the dark at the end of the tunnel". The idea that black people mean evil and white people mean virtue is a stretch of the modern thinking, by the same people that believe that blacklist comes from black people. > where the more animalistic or violent races also tend to be darker Not true. Borgs, arguably the most dangerous species in the series, are white Romulans are pale white. Cardadsians are pale white too.
    - dktokyo 4y ago
      The Borg are all races and Romulans, though majority portrayed as white, likely have multiple skin tones the same way the Vulcans do. Though the idea they purged different skin tones at some point fits with their overall narrative. All the Dominion races were white, more or less. The Changelings have a whole meta commentary going for them.
      - ratsmack 4y ago
        People see what they want to see and are offended by perceptions driven by their own biases, even in cases where no offense is portrayed or intended.
    - krapp 4y ago
      >it's the oldest metaphor in the world >it's light vs darkness, like white magic and black magic. >Heaven is light, hell is darkness. >Nobody sees "the dark at the end of the tunnel". You seem to have confused "the world" for "Christian Europe." There are plenty of cultures in which these metaphors are reversed, or don't exist at all. And the only referent that is relevant to this specific conversation is that of Tolkien, who himself described orcs thusly: squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." He's clearly not drawing entirely from "universal" metaphors of "light" and "darkness." And even if he were, mapping that to race is still ignorant and worth calling out. >Borgs, arguably the most dangerous species in the series, are white I wasn't talking about simply being dangerous, since in context even the Pakleds are dangerous (speaking of problamatic portrayals) so much as presenting depictions of animistic or "savage" behavior that hearkens to outdated racialist stereotypes of non-white cultures. The Borg are essentially a force of nature, so not relevant in that regard. Fair point about the Romulans and Cardassians, although they're clearly metaphors for Colonial Europeans and Nazis respectively, and both are presented as clearly "civilized" in their behavior. Klingons drink blood wine, Cardassians drink kanar. The implications are still there.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  - dktokyo 4y ago
    Might have been true with Star Trek as of early TNG, but not sure it's been that way since. I imagine there was uproar around Tuvok being a black Vulcan, but would be hard to imagine Trek fans caring about that today.
  - satyrnein 4y ago
    This is correct, but what to do about it? Just keep rolling with basically racist concepts because we like the other aspects of the mythology? Or explicitly overturn the racist parts, and keep the rest? I like the second one, but apparently many other commenters are perfectly comfortable with "white=good".
    - krapp 4y ago
      D&D is at least trying to do the latter - they just issued an apology for the Hadozee - a slave race of monkey people for which the unfortunate implications are obvious. At least to some people. Of course we're still left with the archetype of race mapping to moral alignment in general which is gross, but at least it's something. And of course every single time anyone tries to decolonize (I'm going to use that word specifically because it irks certain people) fantasy and sci-fi, there's a controversy like the one we're in the middle of now. Some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century. [0]https://www.thegamer.com/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-adventures-in-space-remove-offensive-hadozee-content-backlash/ https://www.thegamer.com/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-advent...
- atkailash 4y ago
maxmamis 4y ago
Fnoord 4y ago
By translating the origin from Italian into English another crowd is reached, and movie adaptations often differ from books. In this case, casting was chosen to be diverse at the expense of a detail barely anyone cares about. Whether such behavior is -all things considered- a win or loss depends on if such choice hugely hampers the popularity. IOW, vote with your wallet.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > In this case, casting was chosen to be diverse at the expense of a detail barely anyone cares about. Sorry, but that's like saying that nobody cares about Gandalf the white in LOTR, and you can cast whoever you like for the role and make his robe rainbow colored. In fact Amazon didn't do that, the actor playing Gandalf in Rings of power is a white man. For obvious reasons, that have nothing to do with being against diversity. The blue fairy has a central role in Pinocchio and she has long blue hair. They knew that casting a shaved woman would be much more than simply adapting a story. it's like if in a Nausicaa in the valley of the winds adaption Nausicaa is a black disabled boy. It would simply not be the right choice, casting as a job is exactly that, choosing the more apt person for the role, which includes appearances. Of course the colour of the skin is not a fundamental trait, unless it is in the story. A white Apollo Creed would be highly controversial, like a black Abraham Lincoln, an Asian Sitting Bull or an Italian Malcolm X that only eats spaghetti and says "mamamia" with the hands.
  - Fnoord 4y ago
    Perhaps the casted person was the best choice? Ian McKellen was an excellent choice for the role of Gandalf. Whether the same is true for other actors and roles depends on a case by case scenario. I couldn't care less about his skin colour. We in the West allowed foreigners and people of colour into our culture. We deal with it by being inclusive in 2022. Deal with it, simple as that. You don't like it, you don't watch it. I live in a country where a bunch of people have decided to hang their flags upside down. I don't like that and if I see a business doing such, I don't do business with them. Simple as that as well.
DSMan195276 4y ago
> The fairy is pale white not because she is a white person, but because she's pure. Right, because of all of parts of the story that have been changed, _this_ is the part that must be kept - using white skin to equate to purity. Do you agree that in our modern diverse society a black woman can be used to represent "purity"? Because if you do, then surly we can keep the author's original intent without tying it to skin color like he did in 1883.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Right, because of all of parts of the story that have been changed, _this_ is the part that must be kept - using white skin to equate to purity. And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. > Do you agree that in our modern diverse society a black woman can be used to represent "purity"? Do you agree that for white here we mean white the colour, not the pink skin tone, which is inhuman? I am not white like Swedish people are, certainly not like the blue fairy. It's mythology, it's not literal, you are taking it literally, only zealots do that. Do you know that in African mythology fairies are white too? Yumboes (they resemble European fairies) are the spirits of the dead and, like many supernatural beings in African beliefs, they are completely of a pearly-white colour Did it ever occured to you that western mythology was made by westerners and it is silly to try to bend it to reflect USA of today, while they could use non western mythologies and finally show other cultures respect, but probably American studios can't do that, because they wanna make money and not really respect diversity? Why take an 1883 Italian book to show a black fairy?
  - DSMan195276 4y ago
    It seems pretty telling that you didn't actually answer what should have been a simple question. > And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. So then... you agree? White skin representing purity is an aspect that _has_ to be kept, even when so many parts of the actual story have been changed and we've had ~140 years of society in-between? > Do you agree that for white here we mean white the colour, not the pink skin tone, which is inhuman? Ok, so is the portrayal in the 1940's Disney Pinocchio equally as outlandish considering she's just a white woman with blond hair? Would you be reacting the same way if they cast a white woman in the role? And to that point, isn't the new movie intended as a remake of the Disney version, not the original, in which case the blue fairy already didn't have blue hair? > Why take an 1883 Italian book to show a black fairy? Because people like the Disney version of the story?

sirshmooey 4y ago

> The fairy is pale white not because she is white, but because she's pure. Curious equivocation there.

krapp 4y ago
Unfortunately that's really how Tolkien's mythology tends to work. White skin is associated with purity, darker skin with corruption and evil (or at least, between the two, "civilized" and "uncivilized".) It's a trope that's carried on into sci-fi (particularly Star Trek, where the more animalistic or violent races also tend to be darker - see the Klingons who get portrayed as darker-skinned and more aggressive with each iteration) and related high-fantasy properties like D&D.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  There are plenty of counter examples within Star Trek of patently evil or aggressive characters and races being humanoid with light skin. This is purely your own projection.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > White skin is associated with purity, darker skin with corruption it's the oldest metaphor in the world it's light vs darkness, like white magic and black magic. Heaven is light, hell is darkness. Nobody sees "the dark at the end of the tunnel". The idea that black people mean evil and white people mean virtue is a stretch of the modern thinking, by the same people that believe that blacklist comes from black people. > where the more animalistic or violent races also tend to be darker Not true. Borgs, arguably the most dangerous species in the series, are white Romulans are pale white. Cardadsians are pale white too.
  - dktokyo 4y ago
    The Borg are all races and Romulans, though majority portrayed as white, likely have multiple skin tones the same way the Vulcans do. Though the idea they purged different skin tones at some point fits with their overall narrative. All the Dominion races were white, more or less. The Changelings have a whole meta commentary going for them.
    - ratsmack 4y ago
      People see what they want to see and are offended by perceptions driven by their own biases, even in cases where no offense is portrayed or intended.
  - krapp 4y ago
    >it's the oldest metaphor in the world >it's light vs darkness, like white magic and black magic. >Heaven is light, hell is darkness. >Nobody sees "the dark at the end of the tunnel". You seem to have confused "the world" for "Christian Europe." There are plenty of cultures in which these metaphors are reversed, or don't exist at all. And the only referent that is relevant to this specific conversation is that of Tolkien, who himself described orcs thusly: squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." He's clearly not drawing entirely from "universal" metaphors of "light" and "darkness." And even if he were, mapping that to race is still ignorant and worth calling out. >Borgs, arguably the most dangerous species in the series, are white I wasn't talking about simply being dangerous, since in context even the Pakleds are dangerous (speaking of problamatic portrayals) so much as presenting depictions of animistic or "savage" behavior that hearkens to outdated racialist stereotypes of non-white cultures. The Borg are essentially a force of nature, so not relevant in that regard. Fair point about the Romulans and Cardassians, although they're clearly metaphors for Colonial Europeans and Nazis respectively, and both are presented as clearly "civilized" in their behavior. Klingons drink blood wine, Cardassians drink kanar. The implications are still there.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
- dktokyo 4y ago
  Might have been true with Star Trek as of early TNG, but not sure it's been that way since. I imagine there was uproar around Tuvok being a black Vulcan, but would be hard to imagine Trek fans caring about that today.
- satyrnein 4y ago
  This is correct, but what to do about it? Just keep rolling with basically racist concepts because we like the other aspects of the mythology? Or explicitly overturn the racist parts, and keep the rest? I like the second one, but apparently many other commenters are perfectly comfortable with "white=good".
  - krapp 4y ago
    D&D is at least trying to do the latter - they just issued an apology for the Hadozee - a slave race of monkey people for which the unfortunate implications are obvious. At least to some people. Of course we're still left with the archetype of race mapping to moral alignment in general which is gross, but at least it's something. And of course every single time anyone tries to decolonize (I'm going to use that word specifically because it irks certain people) fantasy and sci-fi, there's a controversy like the one we're in the middle of now. Some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century. [0]https://www.thegamer.com/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-adventures-in-space-remove-offensive-hadozee-content-backlash/ https://www.thegamer.com/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-advent...
atkailash 4y ago

maxmamis 4y ago

Fnoord 4y ago

By translating the origin from Italian into English another crowd is reached, and movie adaptations often differ from books. In this case, casting was chosen to be diverse at the expense of a detail barely anyone cares about. Whether such behavior is -all things considered- a win or loss depends on if such choice hugely hampers the popularity. IOW, vote with your wallet.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> In this case, casting was chosen to be diverse at the expense of a detail barely anyone cares about. Sorry, but that's like saying that nobody cares about Gandalf the white in LOTR, and you can cast whoever you like for the role and make his robe rainbow colored. In fact Amazon didn't do that, the actor playing Gandalf in Rings of power is a white man. For obvious reasons, that have nothing to do with being against diversity. The blue fairy has a central role in Pinocchio and she has long blue hair. They knew that casting a shaved woman would be much more than simply adapting a story. it's like if in a Nausicaa in the valley of the winds adaption Nausicaa is a black disabled boy. It would simply not be the right choice, casting as a job is exactly that, choosing the more apt person for the role, which includes appearances. Of course the colour of the skin is not a fundamental trait, unless it is in the story. A white Apollo Creed would be highly controversial, like a black Abraham Lincoln, an Asian Sitting Bull or an Italian Malcolm X that only eats spaghetti and says "mamamia" with the hands.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  Perhaps the casted person was the best choice? Ian McKellen was an excellent choice for the role of Gandalf. Whether the same is true for other actors and roles depends on a case by case scenario. I couldn't care less about his skin colour. We in the West allowed foreigners and people of colour into our culture. We deal with it by being inclusive in 2022. Deal with it, simple as that. You don't like it, you don't watch it. I live in a country where a bunch of people have decided to hang their flags upside down. I don't like that and if I see a business doing such, I don't do business with them. Simple as that as well.

DSMan195276 4y ago

> The fairy is pale white not because she is a white person, but because she's pure. Right, because of all of parts of the story that have been changed, _this_ is the part that must be kept - using white skin to equate to purity. Do you agree that in our modern diverse society a black woman can be used to represent "purity"? Because if you do, then surly we can keep the author's original intent without tying it to skin color like he did in 1883.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Right, because of all of parts of the story that have been changed, _this_ is the part that must be kept - using white skin to equate to purity. And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. > Do you agree that in our modern diverse society a black woman can be used to represent "purity"? Do you agree that for white here we mean white the colour, not the pink skin tone, which is inhuman? I am not white like Swedish people are, certainly not like the blue fairy. It's mythology, it's not literal, you are taking it literally, only zealots do that. Do you know that in African mythology fairies are white too? Yumboes (they resemble European fairies) are the spirits of the dead and, like many supernatural beings in African beliefs, they are completely of a pearly-white colour Did it ever occured to you that western mythology was made by westerners and it is silly to try to bend it to reflect USA of today, while they could use non western mythologies and finally show other cultures respect, but probably American studios can't do that, because they wanna make money and not really respect diversity? Why take an 1883 Italian book to show a black fairy?
- DSMan195276 4y ago
  It seems pretty telling that you didn't actually answer what should have been a simple question. > And maybe the blue hair too, given she's named after her blue hair. So then... you agree? White skin representing purity is an aspect that _has_ to be kept, even when so many parts of the actual story have been changed and we've had ~140 years of society in-between? > Do you agree that for white here we mean white the colour, not the pink skin tone, which is inhuman? Ok, so is the portrayal in the 1940's Disney Pinocchio equally as outlandish considering she's just a white woman with blond hair? Would you be reacting the same way if they cast a white woman in the role? And to that point, isn't the new movie intended as a remake of the Disney version, not the original, in which case the blue fairy already didn't have blue hair? > Why take an 1883 Italian book to show a black fairy? Because people like the Disney version of the story?