4 ms·

> entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after refer

> entire economy of the city of London Is pretty much the entire economy of the UK. Yes Thatcher had her part to play, but election after election after referendum, the will of the people is more of the same Great British exceptionalism.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
People get what they vote for. What's the problem?
- shapefrog 4y ago
  I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    People moan about it because they and their governments haven't understood the consequences of their votes and actions. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't help that elections are also just popularity contests and charades of endless lies and empty promises. Your average voter is far too I'll equipped to make informed judgements on complex issues making them easy to influence through fear mongering by groups with vested interests in seeing the results they want. Everything is fucked.
  - buran77 4y ago
    > I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse [sic] Of course, because you probably don't have to live with any serious consequences of your choices, and you're most likely unaffected by these ones either. Almost half if not more than half of the population in a democracy usually doesn't get to make a realistic choice, they voted for the losers without enough power to enact anything. Most people don't get to live with the result of their choices but the result of others'. This means the pain is lessened for those responsible, and heightened for others. Are they allowed to moan without triggering your sensibilities? How would you know which is which? Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. If you voted for leadership that went on to wage an illegal war you don't get to bear any of that responsibility. People love to bang their own drum about democracy, and freedoms, and their power, and the contribution they made. Until you bring up what the leaders they chose did. And then it's no longer their responsibility, then it's just a stamp on a paper, not a share of the responsibility. What are the consequences you suffer for something like that?
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      > Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. An example of this that I have heard many times is that of Blair and Iraq. However now the situation is more interesting as Brexit was done to themselves, not others (though that does not make any suffering ok).
      - buran77 4y ago
        > Brexit was done to themselves Part of my point is that unanimity (amongst the people) in democracy is pretty much unheard of. So Brexit was not done by everyone. Realistically it wasn't even done by a majority of the population. All the others are in for the ride despite being against it. Democracy may be the best system we've got now but it sure sucks sometimes. It's why it's called the dictatorship of the majority, and many countries are democratic and yet have very little protections for the different minorities, particularly the ones who have no chance of becoming a majority anytime soon. The other part of the point is that most times people don't suffer from some of their decisions despite taking credit for any when it suits them. Similar to sport fans where when their team wins "we won", and when it loses "they lost".
      - Jochim 4y ago
        An interesting point about both is that the proponents garnered their support through extensive lies, directly and through the media. Public support of the Iraq war went hand in hand with the UN both finding WMDs and approving action[0]. The lies about Brexit are pretty infamous: from £350m/week for the NHS to stoking immigration fears and the fabrication of EU powers. While it's disappointing that people are convinced by these types of lies, I'm not sure they're fully to blame; or that it does much good to do so. The bigger question is how do you combat these lies. The ones that seem to tickle the part of the brain where factual arguments don't seem to have much sway. [0] https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/iraq-last-pre-war-polls https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/iraq-last-pre-war-polls
Jochim 4y ago
I think it'd be more accurate to say the will of some people given the effects of the current voting system. That's without going into the effectiveness of tabloid newspapers in inventing public opinion. While people bear at least some responsibility for their actions, I do think they can be put into perspective when you consider the circumstances which led to them.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

People get what they vote for. What's the problem?

shapefrog 4y ago
I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse, it only bothers me hearing them moan about it.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  People moan about it because they and their governments haven't understood the consequences of their votes and actions. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. It doesn't help that elections are also just popularity contests and charades of endless lies and empty promises. Your average voter is far too I'll equipped to make informed judgements on complex issues making them easy to influence through fear mongering by groups with vested interests in seeing the results they want. Everything is fucked.
- buran77 4y ago
  > I am extremely comfortable with people having to suffer the obvious consequences of their choicse [sic] Of course, because you probably don't have to live with any serious consequences of your choices, and you're most likely unaffected by these ones either. Almost half if not more than half of the population in a democracy usually doesn't get to make a realistic choice, they voted for the losers without enough power to enact anything. Most people don't get to live with the result of their choices but the result of others'. This means the pain is lessened for those responsible, and heightened for others. Are they allowed to moan without triggering your sensibilities? How would you know which is which? Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. If you voted for leadership that went on to wage an illegal war you don't get to bear any of that responsibility. People love to bang their own drum about democracy, and freedoms, and their power, and the contribution they made. Until you bring up what the leaders they chose did. And then it's no longer their responsibility, then it's just a stamp on a paper, not a share of the responsibility. What are the consequences you suffer for something like that?
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    > Then realistically you probably didn't get to "suffer" the real consequences from most of your democratic process related choices. An example of this that I have heard many times is that of Blair and Iraq. However now the situation is more interesting as Brexit was done to themselves, not others (though that does not make any suffering ok).
    - buran77 4y ago
      > Brexit was done to themselves Part of my point is that unanimity (amongst the people) in democracy is pretty much unheard of. So Brexit was not done by everyone. Realistically it wasn't even done by a majority of the population. All the others are in for the ride despite being against it. Democracy may be the best system we've got now but it sure sucks sometimes. It's why it's called the dictatorship of the majority, and many countries are democratic and yet have very little protections for the different minorities, particularly the ones who have no chance of becoming a majority anytime soon. The other part of the point is that most times people don't suffer from some of their decisions despite taking credit for any when it suits them. Similar to sport fans where when their team wins "we won", and when it loses "they lost".
    - Jochim 4y ago
      An interesting point about both is that the proponents garnered their support through extensive lies, directly and through the media. Public support of the Iraq war went hand in hand with the UN both finding WMDs and approving action[0]. The lies about Brexit are pretty infamous: from £350m/week for the NHS to stoking immigration fears and the fabrication of EU powers. While it's disappointing that people are convinced by these types of lies, I'm not sure they're fully to blame; or that it does much good to do so. The bigger question is how do you combat these lies. The ones that seem to tickle the part of the brain where factual arguments don't seem to have much sway. [0] https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/iraq-last-pre-war-polls https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/iraq-last-pre-war-polls

Jochim 4y ago

I think it'd be more accurate to say the will of some people given the effects of the current voting system. That's without going into the effectiveness of tabloid newspapers in inventing public opinion. While people bear at least some responsibility for their actions, I do think they can be put into perspective when you consider the circumstances which led to them.