16 ms·

You can't now ignore that Israel is the state. And if that is the case, can they treat their citizens like this? How is it different from apartheid?

1337shadow 4y ago
- yessirwhatever 4y ago
  Israel is an occupying state
  - nailer 4y ago
    - yessirwhatever 4y ago
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Israel is occupying Ethiopian Jews?.
      - nailer 4y ago
        Oh you’re right I used beta incorrectly. Israel is occupying Israel and Judea, which Ethiopian Jews also fled.
- watoc 4y ago
  Foreigners have to declare a relationship with a Palestinian within 30 days to the country occupying the West Bank. How is that similar in any way to what's happening in the US!?? It is apartheid.
- lozenge 4y ago
  Why does it apply only to relationships with Palestinians and not with Israeli citizens? People who are born and live in Israel's occupied territories are barred from Israeli citizenship due to their ethnic and religious background. That's apartheid.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Giving citizenship to anyone born within (Jus soli) is actually not very typical in the world. The US is somewhat of an outlier. Most countries run on the principle of inheriting citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
- markvdb 4y ago
  > How is that apartheid?? This is not a perfect analogue to the racist policies of the South African government 1948-1990, but it's not difficult to spot similarities. This certainly looks discriminatory towards all non-Israelis. And have you noticed how the artificial construct of South African "home lands" with limited autonomy look similar to the Palestinian Authority? >It's just a declaration, pretty much like those you have to do when you want to enter the US, except with different criteria. One explicit difference being that this is not about people entering Israel. It's about people entering those parts of the Israeli occupied areas with limited self governance through the Palestinian Authority. These people are supposed to travel over land through the Jordan border crossing only. The article even mentions quite explicitly that only in exceptional cases shall the people concerned be allowed to use Ben Gurion airport. > Are you against Israel being a sovereign state perhaps? Not at all. I do realise the situation in and around Israel is not simple. That doesn't mean one can't call discrimination when one notices it though...
subliminalpanda 4y ago
It is apartheid.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nailer 4y ago
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    So the US can just declare the black hoods as external terretories and then the South could have continued as they were in the 60s. Amazing what you can achieve by some legal shananigens. Fact is, Israel is in controll of those terretories, these people are suject to the Israeli state.
    - rendall 4y ago
      "So, you can just [describes a completely different situation in a completely different country]. Amazing what you can get away with!"
    - koheripbal 4y ago
      Gaza and West Bank are almost entirely autonomous. They are self-governing with their own civil administration, police force, school system, etc... Israel controls, to only a limited extent, their international borders until a final peace deal is signed because there is a constant missile smuggling operations going on, with those missile being fired across the "border" into Israeli cities. People need to start advocating for a peace deal, and stop taking "sides".
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        Mhh funny when I drove threw the West Bank we passed multiple Israeli army positions. In fact, only the Zone A areas are 'autonomous' and those zones are not connected, so to go from one place in the country to another you pass Israeli army positions where people are harnessed and often shot. But I'm sure if people in the Us to go past a Red Army check point when going from New York to New Jersy that would be totally fine. Not to mention how systematically Israel has stolen resources such as water from those 'self-governing' bantustans. You are sell governing but the water is now gone, why are you doing such a bad job? Israel is also intervening in the affairs of those territories consistently. Its much more comparable to the Indian princes under the English empire. Sure those were 'autonomous' but usually people are not gullible enough to actually be believe that. Israel has major influence in most matters that is usually important for govenrment. The amount of autonomy a city surrounded by foreign army can have is really, really limited. > constant missile smuggling operations going on If there was no smuggling people would starve and wouldn't have medicine. > People need to start advocating for a peace deal, and stop taking "sides". People like you need to open their eyes and stop reading international propaganda about the situation. Even some leading Palestinian researches are now saying Israel has transformed the situation in the West Bank as such that it basically no longer possible to make it into real state. Just endlessly advocating for a 'peace' when the status quo is clearly in favor of 1 party while the other systematically being exploited and reduced is actually taking a side. By just saying we should just have conference after conference where its basically Israel and the US bribing PA leadership to accept more limited aims, is favoring Israel. Israel has long ago realized that as long as they talk a good game about peace internationally while on the ground making peace an impossibility the gullible Westernes who don't understand what's happening on the ground will continue to talk about peace while Israel systematically steals more and more land and water. While Israel imports more 'Jews' (very loosely defined) and while Palestinian refugees of the second generations die and their claim to rights gets weaker and weaker. Look at the powers in Israel, look at the parties, look at the parliament, look at the situation on the ground, the idea that they have even the slightest interest in any kind of peace is delusional. They are slowly transitioning the status quo to where they want it to be. They have long ago started a strategy of 1000-cuts and since the international situation is in their favor they will just continue to execute that strategy. But instead of having those 1000-cuts in the news, Israel does its best to flood Western media with ever bit of fireworks that flies over the border while the fighter jets Israel get rarely mentioned. A single Palestinian attacking somebody with a knive makes more press then a new 10000 people development in the West Bank.
golergka 4y ago
- dis-sys 4y ago
  like it or not, more than 60% of all countries in the world recognize the State of Palestine as a full sovereignty state. It is a fact, not something remain to be negotiated.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nailer 4y ago
    Recognition from those countries is a fact. Recognition from more countries depends on peace talks. I’m sure you understand this and we don’t need to explain it.
    - dis-sys 4y ago
      It depends on Israel to show genuine willingness to respect the legitimate rights of those Palestinians and to comply with UN resolutions.
      - kenrose 4y ago
        It depends on both sides to show genuine willingness of the rights of the peoples on both sides. Absolutely, Israel still has more steps to take towards peace (eg, removing settlements). Historically though, PA leadership has rarely demonstrated any honest desire for compromise or peace. Hamas, currently the government in Gaza, literally calls for the “obliteration” of the State of Israel as part of its charter.
        dis-sys 4y ago
        > Hamas, currently the government in Gaza, literally calls for the “obliteration” of the State of Israel as part of its charter. You are free to call Hamas a terrorist group, I don't have big problem on that. However, a very bold however, using the existence of Hamas as an excuse to paint the ongoing sufferings of Palestinians as "there is a reason behind it" or "Palestinians have their own faults as well" is not helpful - Palestinians kids growing up in isolation, poverty, anger, fear and lack of education are the ones joining Hamas tomorrow.
refurb 4y ago
When I took a trip to Canada, immigration asked the guy ahead of me where he was staying and he said “with my girlfriend” and subsequently got grilled for 10 min about the details of his relationship. And if he had refused to answer he would have been denied entry.
- curiousgal 4y ago
  You seem to have missed the point completely so let me point it out for you (no pun intended). > demand on foreigners to inform the Israeli authorities within 30 days of starting a relationship with a Palestinian ID holder. Most countries grill people who come on a touristic visa to stay with their SOs simply because there is usually a sperate visa scheme for that purpose. The issue here is that the policy only targets part of the population, hence the outcry.
  - nailer 4y ago
    > the policy only targets part of the population No it doesn’t. Palestinians are outside Israel. It targets specific foreigners, not Arabs or Christians or anyone else.
    - curiousgal 4y ago
      The mental gymnastics. Oof
      - nailer 4y ago
        It’s mental gymnastics that people outside your country are foreigners? OK. Open a map. A map made by anyone. See a border? Not the same state.
    - pbarthelemy 4y ago
      Palestinians as foreigners ? Ok, then, thanks ! You just recognized Palestine as a country … ( pro-Israel people can’t have it both ways : denying Palestinian statehood or implying it depending on the issue being discussed…)
SnowHill9902 4y ago
It’s less than what any other reasonable and self-respecting country would do. Inhabitants of that area do not recognize Israel as the state they reside in, and certainly they are not Israeli citizens. This rule regards a zone which has been at war for decades and which had daily suicide attacks until very strict checkpoints were placed.

1337shadow 4y ago

yessirwhatever 4y ago
Israel is an occupying state
- nailer 4y ago
  - yessirwhatever 4y ago
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    Israel is occupying Ethiopian Jews?.
    - nailer 4y ago
      Oh you’re right I used beta incorrectly. Israel is occupying Israel and Judea, which Ethiopian Jews also fled.
watoc 4y ago
Foreigners have to declare a relationship with a Palestinian within 30 days to the country occupying the West Bank. How is that similar in any way to what's happening in the US!?? It is apartheid.
lozenge 4y ago
Why does it apply only to relationships with Palestinians and not with Israeli citizens? People who are born and live in Israel's occupied territories are barred from Israeli citizenship due to their ethnic and religious background. That's apartheid.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Giving citizenship to anyone born within (Jus soli) is actually not very typical in the world. The US is somewhat of an outlier. Most countries run on the principle of inheriting citizenship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
markvdb 4y ago
> How is that apartheid?? This is not a perfect analogue to the racist policies of the South African government 1948-1990, but it's not difficult to spot similarities. This certainly looks discriminatory towards all non-Israelis. And have you noticed how the artificial construct of South African "home lands" with limited autonomy look similar to the Palestinian Authority? >It's just a declaration, pretty much like those you have to do when you want to enter the US, except with different criteria. One explicit difference being that this is not about people entering Israel. It's about people entering those parts of the Israeli occupied areas with limited self governance through the Palestinian Authority. These people are supposed to travel over land through the Jordan border crossing only. The article even mentions quite explicitly that only in exceptional cases shall the people concerned be allowed to use Ben Gurion airport. > Are you against Israel being a sovereign state perhaps? Not at all. I do realise the situation in and around Israel is not simple. That doesn't mean one can't call discrimination when one notices it though...

subliminalpanda 4y ago

It is apartheid.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nailer 4y ago
- panick21_ 4y ago
  So the US can just declare the black hoods as external terretories and then the South could have continued as they were in the 60s. Amazing what you can achieve by some legal shananigens. Fact is, Israel is in controll of those terretories, these people are suject to the Israeli state.
  - rendall 4y ago
    "So, you can just [describes a completely different situation in a completely different country]. Amazing what you can get away with!"
  - koheripbal 4y ago
    Gaza and West Bank are almost entirely autonomous. They are self-governing with their own civil administration, police force, school system, etc... Israel controls, to only a limited extent, their international borders until a final peace deal is signed because there is a constant missile smuggling operations going on, with those missile being fired across the "border" into Israeli cities. People need to start advocating for a peace deal, and stop taking "sides".
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      Mhh funny when I drove threw the West Bank we passed multiple Israeli army positions. In fact, only the Zone A areas are 'autonomous' and those zones are not connected, so to go from one place in the country to another you pass Israeli army positions where people are harnessed and often shot. But I'm sure if people in the Us to go past a Red Army check point when going from New York to New Jersy that would be totally fine. Not to mention how systematically Israel has stolen resources such as water from those 'self-governing' bantustans. You are sell governing but the water is now gone, why are you doing such a bad job? Israel is also intervening in the affairs of those territories consistently. Its much more comparable to the Indian princes under the English empire. Sure those were 'autonomous' but usually people are not gullible enough to actually be believe that. Israel has major influence in most matters that is usually important for govenrment. The amount of autonomy a city surrounded by foreign army can have is really, really limited. > constant missile smuggling operations going on If there was no smuggling people would starve and wouldn't have medicine. > People need to start advocating for a peace deal, and stop taking "sides". People like you need to open their eyes and stop reading international propaganda about the situation. Even some leading Palestinian researches are now saying Israel has transformed the situation in the West Bank as such that it basically no longer possible to make it into real state. Just endlessly advocating for a 'peace' when the status quo is clearly in favor of 1 party while the other systematically being exploited and reduced is actually taking a side. By just saying we should just have conference after conference where its basically Israel and the US bribing PA leadership to accept more limited aims, is favoring Israel. Israel has long ago realized that as long as they talk a good game about peace internationally while on the ground making peace an impossibility the gullible Westernes who don't understand what's happening on the ground will continue to talk about peace while Israel systematically steals more and more land and water. While Israel imports more 'Jews' (very loosely defined) and while Palestinian refugees of the second generations die and their claim to rights gets weaker and weaker. Look at the powers in Israel, look at the parties, look at the parliament, look at the situation on the ground, the idea that they have even the slightest interest in any kind of peace is delusional. They are slowly transitioning the status quo to where they want it to be. They have long ago started a strategy of 1000-cuts and since the international situation is in their favor they will just continue to execute that strategy. But instead of having those 1000-cuts in the news, Israel does its best to flood Western media with ever bit of fireworks that flies over the border while the fighter jets Israel get rarely mentioned. A single Palestinian attacking somebody with a knive makes more press then a new 10000 people development in the West Bank.

golergka 4y ago

dis-sys 4y ago
like it or not, more than 60% of all countries in the world recognize the State of Palestine as a full sovereignty state. It is a fact, not something remain to be negotiated.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nailer 4y ago
  Recognition from those countries is a fact. Recognition from more countries depends on peace talks. I’m sure you understand this and we don’t need to explain it.
  - dis-sys 4y ago
    It depends on Israel to show genuine willingness to respect the legitimate rights of those Palestinians and to comply with UN resolutions.
    - kenrose 4y ago
      It depends on both sides to show genuine willingness of the rights of the peoples on both sides. Absolutely, Israel still has more steps to take towards peace (eg, removing settlements). Historically though, PA leadership has rarely demonstrated any honest desire for compromise or peace. Hamas, currently the government in Gaza, literally calls for the “obliteration” of the State of Israel as part of its charter.
      - dis-sys 4y ago
        > Hamas, currently the government in Gaza, literally calls for the “obliteration” of the State of Israel as part of its charter. You are free to call Hamas a terrorist group, I don't have big problem on that. However, a very bold however, using the existence of Hamas as an excuse to paint the ongoing sufferings of Palestinians as "there is a reason behind it" or "Palestinians have their own faults as well" is not helpful - Palestinians kids growing up in isolation, poverty, anger, fear and lack of education are the ones joining Hamas tomorrow.

refurb 4y ago

When I took a trip to Canada, immigration asked the guy ahead of me where he was staying and he said “with my girlfriend” and subsequently got grilled for 10 min about the details of his relationship. And if he had refused to answer he would have been denied entry.

curiousgal 4y ago
You seem to have missed the point completely so let me point it out for you (no pun intended). > demand on foreigners to inform the Israeli authorities within 30 days of starting a relationship with a Palestinian ID holder. Most countries grill people who come on a touristic visa to stay with their SOs simply because there is usually a sperate visa scheme for that purpose. The issue here is that the policy only targets part of the population, hence the outcry.
- nailer 4y ago
  > the policy only targets part of the population No it doesn’t. Palestinians are outside Israel. It targets specific foreigners, not Arabs or Christians or anyone else.
  - curiousgal 4y ago
    The mental gymnastics. Oof
    - nailer 4y ago
      It’s mental gymnastics that people outside your country are foreigners? OK. Open a map. A map made by anyone. See a border? Not the same state.
  - pbarthelemy 4y ago
    Palestinians as foreigners ? Ok, then, thanks ! You just recognized Palestine as a country … ( pro-Israel people can’t have it both ways : denying Palestinian statehood or implying it depending on the issue being discussed…)

SnowHill9902 4y ago

It’s less than what any other reasonable and self-respecting country would do. Inhabitants of that area do not recognize Israel as the state they reside in, and certainly they are not Israeli citizens. This rule regards a zone which has been at war for decades and which had daily suicide attacks until very strict checkpoints were placed.