5 ms·

Countering the achievement society (2018)

38 points by akbarnama 4y ago

tempodox 4y ago
I like the idea but I suspect it would require a major cultural shift. The unmitigated adulation of “productivity” and “success“ seems too deeply entrenched in cultures of the industrialized world.
- mojuba 4y ago
  I think fundamentally "success" is necessary for financial independence and at least buying your own home, probably the most important resource that's not easily accessible to the wider population otherwise. I think success just for the sake of success is rare (and is a neurosis).
- akudha 4y ago
  I wonder if there are groups of people or societies that reject this achievement stuff and over accumulation of wealth, in favor of pure joy and happiness and health. Would be nice to visit such societies and be a part of them
  - hattmall 4y ago
    This the attitude of most religious groups at their core, those practitioners are generally termed fundamentalists.
  - stemlord 4y ago
    Punks? I hear spaniards take nice siestas every workday
qlm 4y ago
I highly recommend Byung-Chul Han's "The Burnout Society", which is mentioned in this article. It provides a very lucid explanation of modern western society's obsession with achievement and self-improvement, and the harm that this can cause. It can be a little dense if you (like me) aren't used to reading philosophy, but it's not too bad.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It seems there's a lot of pressure to succeed in many Eastern societies as well. Does the book cover the differences?
  - esjeon 4y ago
    AFAICT, the book is not really Eastern-specific. The author is a philosophy professor in Germany, and has authored philosophy books in German. He has his fair share of understanding in the western culture and society. Also, this book is from 2010, which predates a lot of issues we see today.
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  >western society Ah, yes, because Eastern countries like South Korea or Japan are not obsessed with achievement and tainted by heavy doses of burnout.
  - teloli 4y ago
    "Western" was probably used with its economic meaning in mind, as a synonym for "Developed".
  - carapace 4y ago
    What were Korea and Nippon like before encountering Western cultures?
  - esjeon 4y ago
    CJK had abused people far before the west started abusing their own people with achievements. Karoshi first became an issue in 1980s. People overworked because they were expected to do so under the name of discipline and dedication. We all saw this being repeated in Alibaba, an IT company! Still, this is a story of the past, and these days they're all suffering this "achievement society" issue.
  - qlm 4y ago
    Certainly, and the book doesn't claim otherwise. There are differences in the origins of the drive to succeed, however, and these are still worth examining. In modern Western society, the pressure to succeed is largely internalised. People are encouraged to be their "best selves", to strive for endless self-improvement. This pressure doesn't come from familial or societal obligations, but an obligation to oneself. I'll just quote the book: "The achievement-subject stands free from external instances of domination forcing it to work and exploiting it. It is subject to no one if not to itself. However, the absence of external domination does not abolish the structure of compulsion. It makes freedom and compulsion coincide. The achievement-subject gives itself over to freestanding compulsion in order to maximize performance. In this way, it exploits itself. Auto-exploitation is more efficient than allo-exploitation because a deceptive feeling of freedom accompanies it. The exploiter is simultaneously the exploited. Exploitation now occurs without domination. That is what makes self-exploitation so efficient."
chris_armstrong 4y ago
The pleasure of learning in and of itself was always the privilege of a class in society that did not need to worry about educating itself for the purposes of work. The only thing that is different now is that purchasing an education has become more common, and more of a prerequisite for a job. The idea that you can simply counter it by convincing universities, which exist to profit from this fact, to slow down and give students more time for leisure in learning, is wishful thinking.
- bumby 4y ago
  >more of a prerequisite for a job. Or a possible alternative is to retract some of the credentialism gatekeeping regarding jobs. This could transform education from its current predominant role as vocational training and back to the pre-Morrill Act roots of educating a populace in terms of understanding and appreciating culture. To your point, though, this would undermine the consumer base of universities so I would expect them to push back in one way or another. But having employers scale back credentialism can occur irrespective of university policy.
  - chris_armstrong 4y ago
    Credentialism has developed in the crucible of the job market as a response to a high number of job seekers chasing a small pool of desirable jobs. Those that can afford to study longest for the most credentials wins. (I’m not denying that the need for higher education has increased as industrial production became more complex , but this seems like an adjacent process, and not applicable to all types of study) Credentialism will only be undone over a long period of very low unemployment where employers will be forced to train employees themselves and will not require as many credentials to sort candidates.
    - bumby 4y ago
      I agree completely. Part of the issue, though, is that college credentials are too blunt of an instrument. I tend to think that it’s an easy defensible tool for HR rather than a useful one to select competent candidates.
ftyers 4y ago
This sounds more or less like In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell.
- photochemsyn 4y ago
  That's a great reference. Here's a bit from that much longer article that seems relevant here, re academic institutions: > "The method of a hereditary leisure class without duties was, however, extraordinarily wasteful. None of the members of the class had been taught to be industrious, and the class as a whole was not exceptionally intelligent. It might produce one Darwin, but against him had to be set tens of thousands of country gentlemen who never thought of anything more intelligent than fox-hunting and punishing poachers. At present, the universities are supposed to provide, in a more systematic way, what the leisure class provided accidentally and as a byproduct. This is a great improvement, but it has certain drawbacks. University life is so different from life in the world at large that men who live in an academic milieu tend to be unaware of the pre-occupations of ordinary men and women; moreover, their ways of expressing themselves are usually such as to rob their opinions of the influence that they ought to have upon the general public. Another disadvantage is that in universities studies are organized, and the man who thinks of some original line of research is likely to be discouraged. Academic institutions, therefore, useful as they are, are not adequate guardians of the interests of civilization in a world where every one outside their walls is too busy for unutilitarian pursuits." https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ The image of academic students as show ponies doing specified routines (with plenty of meaningless busywork) for their degrees fits with that structure.
jondeval 4y ago
For anyone interested, the article overlaps quite a bit with the ideas of the German philosopher Josef Pieper. His book 'Leisure: The Basis of Culture' is a fairly short read and can really shift your perspective if you're growing tired and bored with the cult of success. I don't know much about this author but it's clear she is well acquainted with Pieper's ideas.
seibelj 4y ago
Think about who your heroes are. Scientists, business leaders, artists, writers, philosophers, podcasters, actors, and on and on. You know about and respect people who accomplished great things that affected you and the world in ways you approve of. Not one of them - not a single one - was a lazy do-nothing who watched Netflix (or birds, or whatever) all day and consumed mindlessly. If you want to be a person who doesn’t accomplish anything of note, there is nothing wrong with this. Being a good person who loves their family and friends and helps their community is a wonderful thing and is an achievement in of itself. But if you want to become one of your heroes - someone who accomplishes great things - then you must work very, very hard at your craft. There is no alternative.

38 points by akbarnama 4y ago

I like the idea but I suspect it would require a major cultural shift. The unmitigated adulation of “productivity” and “success“ seems too deeply entrenched in cultures of the industrialized world.

mojuba 4y ago
I think fundamentally "success" is necessary for financial independence and at least buying your own home, probably the most important resource that's not easily accessible to the wider population otherwise. I think success just for the sake of success is rare (and is a neurosis).
akudha 4y ago
I wonder if there are groups of people or societies that reject this achievement stuff and over accumulation of wealth, in favor of pure joy and happiness and health. Would be nice to visit such societies and be a part of them
- hattmall 4y ago
  This the attitude of most religious groups at their core, those practitioners are generally termed fundamentalists.
- stemlord 4y ago
  Punks? I hear spaniards take nice siestas every workday

qlm 4y ago

I highly recommend Byung-Chul Han's "The Burnout Society", which is mentioned in this article. It provides a very lucid explanation of modern western society's obsession with achievement and self-improvement, and the harm that this can cause. It can be a little dense if you (like me) aren't used to reading philosophy, but it's not too bad.

giantg2 4y ago
It seems there's a lot of pressure to succeed in many Eastern societies as well. Does the book cover the differences?
- esjeon 4y ago
  AFAICT, the book is not really Eastern-specific. The author is a philosophy professor in Germany, and has authored philosophy books in German. He has his fair share of understanding in the western culture and society. Also, this book is from 2010, which predates a lot of issues we see today.
annyeonghada 4y ago
>western society Ah, yes, because Eastern countries like South Korea or Japan are not obsessed with achievement and tainted by heavy doses of burnout.
- teloli 4y ago
  "Western" was probably used with its economic meaning in mind, as a synonym for "Developed".
- carapace 4y ago
  What were Korea and Nippon like before encountering Western cultures?
- esjeon 4y ago
  CJK had abused people far before the west started abusing their own people with achievements. Karoshi first became an issue in 1980s. People overworked because they were expected to do so under the name of discipline and dedication. We all saw this being repeated in Alibaba, an IT company! Still, this is a story of the past, and these days they're all suffering this "achievement society" issue.
- qlm 4y ago
  Certainly, and the book doesn't claim otherwise. There are differences in the origins of the drive to succeed, however, and these are still worth examining. In modern Western society, the pressure to succeed is largely internalised. People are encouraged to be their "best selves", to strive for endless self-improvement. This pressure doesn't come from familial or societal obligations, but an obligation to oneself. I'll just quote the book: "The achievement-subject stands free from external instances of domination forcing it to work and exploiting it. It is subject to no one if not to itself. However, the absence of external domination does not abolish the structure of compulsion. It makes freedom and compulsion coincide. The achievement-subject gives itself over to freestanding compulsion in order to maximize performance. In this way, it exploits itself. Auto-exploitation is more efficient than allo-exploitation because a deceptive feeling of freedom accompanies it. The exploiter is simultaneously the exploited. Exploitation now occurs without domination. That is what makes self-exploitation so efficient."

chris_armstrong 4y ago

The pleasure of learning in and of itself was always the privilege of a class in society that did not need to worry about educating itself for the purposes of work. The only thing that is different now is that purchasing an education has become more common, and more of a prerequisite for a job. The idea that you can simply counter it by convincing universities, which exist to profit from this fact, to slow down and give students more time for leisure in learning, is wishful thinking.

bumby 4y ago
>more of a prerequisite for a job. Or a possible alternative is to retract some of the credentialism gatekeeping regarding jobs. This could transform education from its current predominant role as vocational training and back to the pre-Morrill Act roots of educating a populace in terms of understanding and appreciating culture. To your point, though, this would undermine the consumer base of universities so I would expect them to push back in one way or another. But having employers scale back credentialism can occur irrespective of university policy.
- chris_armstrong 4y ago
  Credentialism has developed in the crucible of the job market as a response to a high number of job seekers chasing a small pool of desirable jobs. Those that can afford to study longest for the most credentials wins. (I’m not denying that the need for higher education has increased as industrial production became more complex , but this seems like an adjacent process, and not applicable to all types of study) Credentialism will only be undone over a long period of very low unemployment where employers will be forced to train employees themselves and will not require as many credentials to sort candidates.
  - bumby 4y ago
    I agree completely. Part of the issue, though, is that college credentials are too blunt of an instrument. I tend to think that it’s an easy defensible tool for HR rather than a useful one to select competent candidates.

ftyers 4y ago

This sounds more or less like In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell.

photochemsyn 4y ago
That's a great reference. Here's a bit from that much longer article that seems relevant here, re academic institutions: > "The method of a hereditary leisure class without duties was, however, extraordinarily wasteful. None of the members of the class had been taught to be industrious, and the class as a whole was not exceptionally intelligent. It might produce one Darwin, but against him had to be set tens of thousands of country gentlemen who never thought of anything more intelligent than fox-hunting and punishing poachers. At present, the universities are supposed to provide, in a more systematic way, what the leisure class provided accidentally and as a byproduct. This is a great improvement, but it has certain drawbacks. University life is so different from life in the world at large that men who live in an academic milieu tend to be unaware of the pre-occupations of ordinary men and women; moreover, their ways of expressing themselves are usually such as to rob their opinions of the influence that they ought to have upon the general public. Another disadvantage is that in universities studies are organized, and the man who thinks of some original line of research is likely to be discouraged. Academic institutions, therefore, useful as they are, are not adequate guardians of the interests of civilization in a world where every one outside their walls is too busy for unutilitarian pursuits." https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ The image of academic students as show ponies doing specified routines (with plenty of meaningless busywork) for their degrees fits with that structure.

jondeval 4y ago

For anyone interested, the article overlaps quite a bit with the ideas of the German philosopher Josef Pieper. His book 'Leisure: The Basis of Culture' is a fairly short read and can really shift your perspective if you're growing tired and bored with the cult of success. I don't know much about this author but it's clear she is well acquainted with Pieper's ideas.

seibelj 4y ago

Think about who your heroes are. Scientists, business leaders, artists, writers, philosophers, podcasters, actors, and on and on. You know about and respect people who accomplished great things that affected you and the world in ways you approve of. Not one of them - not a single one - was a lazy do-nothing who watched Netflix (or birds, or whatever) all day and consumed mindlessly. If you want to be a person who doesn’t accomplish anything of note, there is nothing wrong with this. Being a good person who loves their family and friends and helps their community is a wonderful thing and is an achievement in of itself. But if you want to become one of your heroes - someone who accomplishes great things - then you must work very, very hard at your craft. There is no alternative.