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I find it annoying that they are not using the standard phoenetic alphabet

by Jemm 4y ago

ParetoOptimal 4y ago
As someone who has voice coded full-time for a long period of time, that would get quite annoying. Notice that some users even start using Talon's noise support. I even changed "scroll up" to "suh" because I said it 300 times per day.
yewenjie 4y ago
I think the main reason is too easily distinguish (to the program) between letters - and I guess to also have shorter words.
- OJFord 4y ago
  That's also the NATO phonetic alphabet's raison d'être, where a lot more's on the line; a lot more research time and money has been spent on it over the years. Air, Jury, and Quench in particular strike me as ambiguous examples NATO would never go for. Krunch is just baffling. Plex breaks the scheme followed by every other (that it's the first letter in the word).
  - lunixbochs 4y ago
    Talon's alphabet is extremely carefully designed. There's de bruijn sequence style redundant phonetic information in each letter allowing the single syllable words to be mashed together at high speed without pauses (even allows for a bit of slurring to fit more than one letter into a syllable). I can type 60wpm with it, see me spelling a last name around 0:40 in this video for typical usage [1]. It's also carefully tested (with an American accent) to not jam up your mouth / tongue when you say the letters in any order. You can remap it to whatever you want, and a few users choose either NATO or a custom alphabet. But most stick with Talon's with minor changes (e.g. they might change a specific word if it's harder to say clearly in their accent, or if their mic or environment makes it more difficult to pick up specific sounds). You can also use the English alphabet for spelling anywhere you can say a word, e.g. "say hello" and "say H E L L O" both work the same. This isn't a voice assistant where you belt out a command once in a while then move on with your day, and this isn't a low fidelity radio link. These words may be said tens of thousands of times a day. Using three-syllable NATO words is slow and exhausting. It's common for voice programming systems to define their own alphabet based on a truncated NATO alphabet. I went further because I wanted to be able to use vim and play DCSS at very high speeds with my key commands instead of binding a bunch of app specific custom commands. [1] https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896
oolonthegreat 4y ago
from their youtube comment: > Good question. For efficiency, we try to keep commonly used terms such as letters as short as possible. Note that the words we use for letters all one syllable, whereas the NATO phonetic alphabet are mostly two syllables. The words we use for spelling are also chosen so that they can be chained together easily and quickly, eg “harp each look look odd”. Easy to say quickly without slurring
userbinator 4y ago
In my experience, the vast majority of people haven't even heard of the NATO alphabet, unless they've had exposure to certain industries which use it heavily, like military/aerospace.
- OJFord 4y ago
  But, before using this, all people are unfamiliar with this proprietary one. If you have to learn something..?
yosito 4y ago
Siri doesn't seem to have a problem just calling letters by their name. It would be nice if there was a setting to choose between the Talon alphabet, NATO phonetic alphabet, and regional standard letter names.

I find it annoying that they are not using the standard phoenetic alphabet

by Jemm 4y ago

I find it annoying that they are not using the standard phoenetic alphabet

As someone who has voice coded full-time for a long period of time, that would get quite annoying. Notice that some users even start using Talon's noise support. I even changed "scroll up" to "suh" because I said it 300 times per day.

yewenjie 4y ago

I think the main reason is too easily distinguish (to the program) between letters - and I guess to also have shorter words.

OJFord 4y ago
That's also the NATO phonetic alphabet's raison d'être, where a lot more's on the line; a lot more research time and money has been spent on it over the years. Air, Jury, and Quench in particular strike me as ambiguous examples NATO would never go for. Krunch is just baffling. Plex breaks the scheme followed by every other (that it's the first letter in the word).
- lunixbochs 4y ago
  Talon's alphabet is extremely carefully designed. There's de bruijn sequence style redundant phonetic information in each letter allowing the single syllable words to be mashed together at high speed without pauses (even allows for a bit of slurring to fit more than one letter into a syllable). I can type 60wpm with it, see me spelling a last name around 0:40 in this video for typical usage [1]. It's also carefully tested (with an American accent) to not jam up your mouth / tongue when you say the letters in any order. You can remap it to whatever you want, and a few users choose either NATO or a custom alphabet. But most stick with Talon's with minor changes (e.g. they might change a specific word if it's harder to say clearly in their accent, or if their mic or environment makes it more difficult to pick up specific sounds). You can also use the English alphabet for spelling anywhere you can say a word, e.g. "say hello" and "say H E L L O" both work the same. This isn't a voice assistant where you belt out a command once in a while then move on with your day, and this isn't a low fidelity radio link. These words may be said tens of thousands of times a day. Using three-syllable NATO words is slow and exhausting. It's common for voice programming systems to define their own alphabet based on a truncated NATO alphabet. I went further because I wanted to be able to use vim and play DCSS at very high speeds with my key commands instead of binding a bunch of app specific custom commands. [1] https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896

oolonthegreat 4y ago

from their youtube comment: > Good question. For efficiency, we try to keep commonly used terms such as letters as short as possible. Note that the words we use for letters all one syllable, whereas the NATO phonetic alphabet are mostly two syllables. The words we use for spelling are also chosen so that they can be chained together easily and quickly, eg “harp each look look odd”. Easy to say quickly without slurring

userbinator 4y ago

In my experience, the vast majority of people haven't even heard of the NATO alphabet, unless they've had exposure to certain industries which use it heavily, like military/aerospace.

OJFord 4y ago
But, before using this, all people are unfamiliar with this proprietary one. If you have to learn something..?

yosito 4y ago

Siri doesn't seem to have a problem just calling letters by their name. It would be nice if there was a setting to choose between the Talon alphabet, NATO phonetic alphabet, and regional standard letter names.