4 ms·

Most of the country is low density. Local buses were shut down for almost 2 years from Covid. Tons of businesses shut down for sole reason that people couldn’t

Most of the country is low density. Local buses were shut down for almost 2 years from Covid. Tons of businesses shut down for sole reason that people couldn’t get to work. Not having a car is insane.

bmismyname 4y ago
This is a tired old argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The majority of people live in cities, not rural homesteads. Once upon a time we didn't have the interstate system, but FDR created the New Deal, and with that the federal government created the interstate highway system we have today. We can do the same for rail, but the automobile lobbyists won't allow it. I'd argue that the interstate highway system is probably the USA's greatest accomplishment, and one of the greatest public works projects. FDR sold it by framing it as a national defense initiative. Maybe we need to use some of that national defense budget for public transit? Sadly, I don't think we'll ever have a politician with the kind of gumption necessary to save ourselves from ourselves.
- treeman79 4y ago
  Low density cities. Few places are like Chicago or New York. The interstate highway system was actually for defense. Moving things from coast to coast was far to difficult. FDR saw the German Highway system during the war and was rightfully jealous.
  - stouset 4y ago
    If only FDR had seen the Swiss system of streetcars…
  - bmismyname 4y ago
    Let's say you're right, and cities are low density. So what? What precludes them from having good public transit? Roads exist, why can't they be rail lines instead? Roads are quite expensive, and there are many internet resources with tons of evidence and arguments about this: strong towns, not just bikes, climate town, etc.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Roads are much easier to interconnect than rails because road vehicles can make much sharper turns and handle steeper grades. Point to point navigation has high utility and is difficult to acheive with rail. Minimum viable roads are actually quite inexpensive: clear large vegetation from the path and there's a usable road. You can incrementally improve with path markers, grading, gravel, pavement, etc. Minimum viable rail is a much higher standard, which needs grading, railbed preparation, laying the rail, signalling and operations.
hayst4ck 4y ago
The first time you go to a city that has incredible public transportation you will have a very transformative experience. Go spend a month in Seoul or Taipei. Cars are poison. They poison walk-ability, they poison commuting, they damage health from their exhaust, deprivation of walking, and crashes, they require attention to operate and thus literally steal your life hours. Cars require parking and parking spaces. Cars require wide roads which reduces density. Cars require surface level roads. Cars create traffic. Cars spit in the face of economies of scale. When I lived in the center of a city, I could run my finger across my window seal and it would come up black from all the car exhaust that had settled on it. That is going into our lungs. Structuring the operations of life around cars is insane. Density is a policy choice.

bmismyname 4y ago

This is a tired old argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The majority of people live in cities, not rural homesteads. Once upon a time we didn't have the interstate system, but FDR created the New Deal, and with that the federal government created the interstate highway system we have today. We can do the same for rail, but the automobile lobbyists won't allow it. I'd argue that the interstate highway system is probably the USA's greatest accomplishment, and one of the greatest public works projects. FDR sold it by framing it as a national defense initiative. Maybe we need to use some of that national defense budget for public transit? Sadly, I don't think we'll ever have a politician with the kind of gumption necessary to save ourselves from ourselves.

treeman79 4y ago
Low density cities. Few places are like Chicago or New York. The interstate highway system was actually for defense. Moving things from coast to coast was far to difficult. FDR saw the German Highway system during the war and was rightfully jealous.
- stouset 4y ago
  If only FDR had seen the Swiss system of streetcars…
- bmismyname 4y ago
  Let's say you're right, and cities are low density. So what? What precludes them from having good public transit? Roads exist, why can't they be rail lines instead? Roads are quite expensive, and there are many internet resources with tons of evidence and arguments about this: strong towns, not just bikes, climate town, etc.
  - toast0 4y ago
    Roads are much easier to interconnect than rails because road vehicles can make much sharper turns and handle steeper grades. Point to point navigation has high utility and is difficult to acheive with rail. Minimum viable roads are actually quite inexpensive: clear large vegetation from the path and there's a usable road. You can incrementally improve with path markers, grading, gravel, pavement, etc. Minimum viable rail is a much higher standard, which needs grading, railbed preparation, laying the rail, signalling and operations.

hayst4ck 4y ago

The first time you go to a city that has incredible public transportation you will have a very transformative experience. Go spend a month in Seoul or Taipei. Cars are poison. They poison walk-ability, they poison commuting, they damage health from their exhaust, deprivation of walking, and crashes, they require attention to operate and thus literally steal your life hours. Cars require parking and parking spaces. Cars require wide roads which reduces density. Cars require surface level roads. Cars create traffic. Cars spit in the face of economies of scale. When I lived in the center of a city, I could run my finger across my window seal and it would come up black from all the car exhaust that had settled on it. That is going into our lungs. Structuring the operations of life around cars is insane. Density is a policy choice.