5 ms·

Can we please just have high quality public transit, including high-speed inter-city rail?

treeman79 4y ago
Most of the country is low density. Local buses were shut down for almost 2 years from Covid. Tons of businesses shut down for sole reason that people couldn’t get to work. Not having a car is insane.
- bmismyname 4y ago
  This is a tired old argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The majority of people live in cities, not rural homesteads. Once upon a time we didn't have the interstate system, but FDR created the New Deal, and with that the federal government created the interstate highway system we have today. We can do the same for rail, but the automobile lobbyists won't allow it. I'd argue that the interstate highway system is probably the USA's greatest accomplishment, and one of the greatest public works projects. FDR sold it by framing it as a national defense initiative. Maybe we need to use some of that national defense budget for public transit? Sadly, I don't think we'll ever have a politician with the kind of gumption necessary to save ourselves from ourselves.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    Low density cities. Few places are like Chicago or New York. The interstate highway system was actually for defense. Moving things from coast to coast was far to difficult. FDR saw the German Highway system during the war and was rightfully jealous.
    - stouset 4y ago
      If only FDR had seen the Swiss system of streetcars…
    - bmismyname 4y ago
      Let's say you're right, and cities are low density. So what? What precludes them from having good public transit? Roads exist, why can't they be rail lines instead? Roads are quite expensive, and there are many internet resources with tons of evidence and arguments about this: strong towns, not just bikes, climate town, etc.
      - toast0 4y ago
        Roads are much easier to interconnect than rails because road vehicles can make much sharper turns and handle steeper grades. Point to point navigation has high utility and is difficult to acheive with rail. Minimum viable roads are actually quite inexpensive: clear large vegetation from the path and there's a usable road. You can incrementally improve with path markers, grading, gravel, pavement, etc. Minimum viable rail is a much higher standard, which needs grading, railbed preparation, laying the rail, signalling and operations.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  The first time you go to a city that has incredible public transportation you will have a very transformative experience. Go spend a month in Seoul or Taipei. Cars are poison. They poison walk-ability, they poison commuting, they damage health from their exhaust, deprivation of walking, and crashes, they require attention to operate and thus literally steal your life hours. Cars require parking and parking spaces. Cars require wide roads which reduces density. Cars require surface level roads. Cars create traffic. Cars spit in the face of economies of scale. When I lived in the center of a city, I could run my finger across my window seal and it would come up black from all the car exhaust that had settled on it. That is going into our lungs. Structuring the operations of life around cars is insane. Density is a policy choice.
briandear 4y ago
Until a transit strike paralyzes it. Or until a storm shuts it down. Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style. Or until the trains turn into homeless shelters with meth-overdosing zombies. Last thing in the world I want to do is spend time with “the public.” Or have to haul kids and groceries via train. Or have to get to a doctors appointment on one side of town and then another event on the other side of town and minimal time to connect those dots. I also don’t want to walk multiple blocks during heat waves, storms, or snow.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  > Until a transit strike paralyzes it. People have had protests in the middle of a free way, so human action resulting in paralyzed transportation isn't novel. Storms, car crashes etc have "paralyzed" roads. Bridges have fallen into water ways paralyzing transit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_bridge_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_bridge_collap... > Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style... If you have widely used public transportation, then it can't be shut down. The public won't allow it. It goes from infrastructure to critical infrastructure. You would probably see enforced mask mandates. If you have public transportation used by the middle or upper class, the tolerance for homeless and drugs will decrease. > Last thing in the world... And this is the fundamental selfishness. You want to rob cities of economies of scale so they can subsidize your posh suburban life style. Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of people just like you, and the end result is hour long commutes for 20 minute's of distance or 10 lane freeways that somehow seem to be some of the most clogged in the nation. You have bad experiences with American "public transportation" but probably haven't experienced functional transportation. Your point to point trip in a city could be unencumbered by the spectre of traffic. > I also don’t want to walk multiple blocks during heat waves, storms, or snow. If you travel to Asia, you will find that functional transportation often comes with sprawling subterranean complexes or covered walkways. Even when it doesn't there are umbrellas for sale everywhere. You still have to park and travel from your parking to your destination. I don't know about you, but that's frequently been blocks of walking for me in any city. American public transportation is bad. It's not reasonable to point to our bad transportation and say public transportation as an idea is bad. It is a vastly more pleasant experience in other places.

Most of the country is low density. Local buses were shut down for almost 2 years from Covid. Tons of businesses shut down for sole reason that people couldn’t get to work. Not having a car is insane.

bmismyname 4y ago
This is a tired old argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The majority of people live in cities, not rural homesteads. Once upon a time we didn't have the interstate system, but FDR created the New Deal, and with that the federal government created the interstate highway system we have today. We can do the same for rail, but the automobile lobbyists won't allow it. I'd argue that the interstate highway system is probably the USA's greatest accomplishment, and one of the greatest public works projects. FDR sold it by framing it as a national defense initiative. Maybe we need to use some of that national defense budget for public transit? Sadly, I don't think we'll ever have a politician with the kind of gumption necessary to save ourselves from ourselves.
- treeman79 4y ago
  Low density cities. Few places are like Chicago or New York. The interstate highway system was actually for defense. Moving things from coast to coast was far to difficult. FDR saw the German Highway system during the war and was rightfully jealous.
  - stouset 4y ago
    If only FDR had seen the Swiss system of streetcars…
  - bmismyname 4y ago
    Let's say you're right, and cities are low density. So what? What precludes them from having good public transit? Roads exist, why can't they be rail lines instead? Roads are quite expensive, and there are many internet resources with tons of evidence and arguments about this: strong towns, not just bikes, climate town, etc.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Roads are much easier to interconnect than rails because road vehicles can make much sharper turns and handle steeper grades. Point to point navigation has high utility and is difficult to acheive with rail. Minimum viable roads are actually quite inexpensive: clear large vegetation from the path and there's a usable road. You can incrementally improve with path markers, grading, gravel, pavement, etc. Minimum viable rail is a much higher standard, which needs grading, railbed preparation, laying the rail, signalling and operations.
hayst4ck 4y ago
The first time you go to a city that has incredible public transportation you will have a very transformative experience. Go spend a month in Seoul or Taipei. Cars are poison. They poison walk-ability, they poison commuting, they damage health from their exhaust, deprivation of walking, and crashes, they require attention to operate and thus literally steal your life hours. Cars require parking and parking spaces. Cars require wide roads which reduces density. Cars require surface level roads. Cars create traffic. Cars spit in the face of economies of scale. When I lived in the center of a city, I could run my finger across my window seal and it would come up black from all the car exhaust that had settled on it. That is going into our lungs. Structuring the operations of life around cars is insane. Density is a policy choice.

briandear 4y ago

Until a transit strike paralyzes it. Or until a storm shuts it down. Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style. Or until the trains turn into homeless shelters with meth-overdosing zombies. Last thing in the world I want to do is spend time with “the public.” Or have to haul kids and groceries via train. Or have to get to a doctors appointment on one side of town and then another event on the other side of town and minimal time to connect those dots. I also don’t want to walk multiple blocks during heat waves, storms, or snow.

hayst4ck 4y ago
> Until a transit strike paralyzes it. People have had protests in the middle of a free way, so human action resulting in paralyzed transportation isn't novel. Storms, car crashes etc have "paralyzed" roads. Bridges have fallen into water ways paralyzing transit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_bridge_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-5_Skagit_River_bridge_collap... > Or until government decides to shut it down Covid-style... If you have widely used public transportation, then it can't be shut down. The public won't allow it. It goes from infrastructure to critical infrastructure. You would probably see enforced mask mandates. If you have public transportation used by the middle or upper class, the tolerance for homeless and drugs will decrease. > Last thing in the world... And this is the fundamental selfishness. You want to rob cities of economies of scale so they can subsidize your posh suburban life style. Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of people just like you, and the end result is hour long commutes for 20 minute's of distance or 10 lane freeways that somehow seem to be some of the most clogged in the nation. You have bad experiences with American "public transportation" but probably haven't experienced functional transportation. Your point to point trip in a city could be unencumbered by the spectre of traffic. > I also don’t want to walk multiple blocks during heat waves, storms, or snow. If you travel to Asia, you will find that functional transportation often comes with sprawling subterranean complexes or covered walkways. Even when it doesn't there are umbrellas for sale everywhere. You still have to park and travel from your parking to your destination. I don't know about you, but that's frequently been blocks of walking for me in any city. American public transportation is bad. It's not reasonable to point to our bad transportation and say public transportation as an idea is bad. It is a vastly more pleasant experience in other places.