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These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. Their value is determined by humans. The mere fact that these ar

by Bakary 4y ago

These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. Their value is determined by humans. The mere fact that these are seen as valuable by humans is already a good indication that humans do these things or help them along.

mistermann 4y ago
> These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. > Their value is determined by humans. On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time.
- ianai 4y ago
  I like it. Valuation through consequence.
- Bakary 4y ago
  >They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. >On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time. Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing?
  - mistermann 4y ago
    > But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. Too true....and this is no small feat! (I could tell stories until the sun came up...) > It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. Have you taken into consideration what implements "it doesn't make sense"? Are you not running into the very problem you noted in your prior sentence? > Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. Surely, often and to varying degrees. But then, to what degree is all of this speculation? How might one know? > If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. Exactly!! > And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing? Perspectives upon reality? The output of human consciousness? A dream world of some sort?

by Bakary 4y ago

mistermann 4y ago

> These positive traits you cite are defined by human minds and have no meaning outside of them. They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. > Their value is determined by humans. On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time.

ianai 4y ago
I like it. Valuation through consequence.
Bakary 4y ago
>They can certainly have consequences though, and consequences can lead to meaning. But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. >On one level of reality, but there are many different layers happening at the same time. Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing?
- mistermann 4y ago
  > But the point is that you do need an observer capable of perceiving that meaning. Too true....and this is no small feat! (I could tell stories until the sun came up...) > It doesn't make sense that the observer would be the source of the values, but at the same time antithetical to their existence as the OP claimed. Have you taken into consideration what implements "it doesn't make sense"? Are you not running into the very problem you noted in your prior sentence? > Sure, but we then operate on an entirely different basis that precludes the terms such as 'value' that we are currently using. Surely, often and to varying degrees. But then, to what degree is all of this speculation? How might one know? > If the layer is different, then the concepts will be different to. Exactly!! > And if we can't point to those concepts, what exactly are we discussing? Perspectives upon reality? The output of human consciousness? A dream world of some sort?