6 ms·

I think it was inevetiable, because the OS features needed to implement virus scanning are indistinguishable from the features needed to hook malware into the O

I think it was inevetiable, because the OS features needed to implement virus scanning are indistinguishable from the features needed to hook malware into the OS (and apart from those technical details, most 3rd party antivirus solutions became actual malware over time, or at least actually increased the attack surface because of the shady shit they're doing). What's funny though is that I always thought that Apple/macOS is doing things differently because they are a decade ahead of Microsoft when it comes to securing their OS, but it turns out that Apple is actually a decade behind (also see the Windows Vista style confirmation popups on recent macOS versions).

okamiueru 4y ago
I'll add to this that as a long time Windows user, and occasional Mac OS (work related), I'd say Windows is a decade behind gnome. How Windows still doesn't have good ways to record or capture the screen, of moving and resizing windows is still requires focus and skill, is beyond me. Also, different UIs from different generations, with partially overlapping features. Not to mention internal key value store that makes it impressive that it doesn't stop working suddenly more often than it does.
- unsafecast 4y ago
  > a decade behind gnome You mean macOS? Seems kind of random.
  - okamiueru 4y ago
    > "I'd say Windows is a decade behind gnome." ^ I thought this made it clear I was referring to Windows? I honestly do not care about anything related to flame wars. Just that whenever I use Windows and want to do OS related things, it all feels clunky and annoying. It's not consistent. It's slow at start for no good reason (likely due to telemetry, or other online stuff). Updates are annoying and I'm glad I don't have do do anything professional on Windows. The windows api is ugly. The only saving grace it has for technical productivity is WSL2. But, at that point, there is zero incentive to use something so clunky, when you can use linux/gnome and have a much, much, more enjoyable experience. Again, everyone to each theirs. Ship buoyancy and all that. edit: Ah, I think I understand my misunderstanding. I wasn't commenting so much on the previous post about Windows vs MacOS. But adding that if something is a decade old compared to Windows, I consider windows to not have had any consistent improvements since Windows XP. Everything after that has been a mess. Some things better, but with a mix of old. "Need to fix something os-related", looks through new control panel. nope. looks through old control panel nope. Maybe it was in computer management?
    - unsafecast 4y ago
      > thought this made it clear I was referring to Windows? I was talking about the gnome part, as that wasn’t mentioned anywhere above :) I’m not trying to start another windows-mac war either
      - okamiueru 4y ago
        I see. No worries :) My comment was intended as being somewhat relevant to, but not directly, to yours. The same way you related your windows vs mac experience, I related my gnome to windows.
        unsafecast 4y ago
        I'm not the person you initially replied to, but yeah, makes sense.
- marwis 4y ago
  Win+Shift+S does all kind of screenshots. Win+Alt+R will record video of current window - unfortunately there's nothing for whole desktop. Not sure what's your problem with resizing windows but there are all kind of shortcuts for moving and resizing them if mouse is somehow too hard.
Maursault 4y ago
> What's funny ... it turns out that Apple is actually a decade behind. This is completely false. A year before Microsoft released Defender in 2006, Apple had already packaged AV scanning in Mac OS X Tiger Server[1] in 2005. ClamAV[2] is OSS, and easily installed on the client OS, and many did so and had been since its first release in 2002. The thing was, practically, there were no viruses on Mac OS X. The only reason Apple included ClamAV on the server was for scanning mail, because Mac OS X Server's mail server obviously also served Windows mail clients. IOW, Apple was fixing Microsoft's broken crap before Microsoft's own attempt to fix their broken crap.[3] The very first Mac OS X virus appeared in 2006, called Leap-A. That was one in 2006, when Microsoft Windows already had tens of thousands in the wild. Following Leap-A were a few proofs of concept, and it seemed like every year, there would be one new virus, worm or Trojan horse identified on Mac. But infection was exceedingly rare, compared to Windows that would ensure a new installation to be infected within 10 minutes of being connected to the Internet. By the mid-2010s there were dozens of identified malware on Mac, but infection was still a very rare exception. Meanwhile, Windows had hundreds of thousands of malware by then, and it was nearly impossible to prevent infection even with vigilant virus scanning; malware got through ordinarily. To this day, malware on macOS is pretty much a nonissue, and AV on Mac is only there primarily to prevent Windows machines on the same local network from being infected via Mac proxy. There has never been a widespread malware infection on Mac since Apple modernized their OS to BSD. Similarly, you never hear about malware on NetBSD, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD. There is good reason: unlike Windows, BSD is not fundamentally insecure. Malware developers go after the low hanging fruit, which is always pretty much only Microsoft Windows, and malware has plagued Microsoft's NT-based OS since inception. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Server#Mac_OS_X_Server_10.4_(Tiger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Server#Mac_OS_X_Server_1... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam_AntiVirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam_AntiVirus [3] Had Microsoft Windows not been so dysfunctional, with Microsoft prone to actively breaking useful functionality in enterprise, Linux would never have become so popular. Linux's first best reason for existing was that Linux devs would quickly restore Windows' functionality within short order of Microsoft's removal of that functionality, within days or weeks. For years it was a cat and mouse game, with Linux's cat quickly catching Microsoft's mouse. This is how Linux got a foothold in the server room, which, as we know, exploded between 2011 and 2013 when Linux finally took over the datacenter.

okamiueru 4y ago

I'll add to this that as a long time Windows user, and occasional Mac OS (work related), I'd say Windows is a decade behind gnome. How Windows still doesn't have good ways to record or capture the screen, of moving and resizing windows is still requires focus and skill, is beyond me. Also, different UIs from different generations, with partially overlapping features. Not to mention internal key value store that makes it impressive that it doesn't stop working suddenly more often than it does.

unsafecast 4y ago
> a decade behind gnome You mean macOS? Seems kind of random.
- okamiueru 4y ago
  > "I'd say Windows is a decade behind gnome." ^ I thought this made it clear I was referring to Windows? I honestly do not care about anything related to flame wars. Just that whenever I use Windows and want to do OS related things, it all feels clunky and annoying. It's not consistent. It's slow at start for no good reason (likely due to telemetry, or other online stuff). Updates are annoying and I'm glad I don't have do do anything professional on Windows. The windows api is ugly. The only saving grace it has for technical productivity is WSL2. But, at that point, there is zero incentive to use something so clunky, when you can use linux/gnome and have a much, much, more enjoyable experience. Again, everyone to each theirs. Ship buoyancy and all that. edit: Ah, I think I understand my misunderstanding. I wasn't commenting so much on the previous post about Windows vs MacOS. But adding that if something is a decade old compared to Windows, I consider windows to not have had any consistent improvements since Windows XP. Everything after that has been a mess. Some things better, but with a mix of old. "Need to fix something os-related", looks through new control panel. nope. looks through old control panel nope. Maybe it was in computer management?
  - unsafecast 4y ago
    > thought this made it clear I was referring to Windows? I was talking about the gnome part, as that wasn’t mentioned anywhere above :) I’m not trying to start another windows-mac war either
    - okamiueru 4y ago
      I see. No worries :) My comment was intended as being somewhat relevant to, but not directly, to yours. The same way you related your windows vs mac experience, I related my gnome to windows.
      - unsafecast 4y ago
        I'm not the person you initially replied to, but yeah, makes sense.
marwis 4y ago
Win+Shift+S does all kind of screenshots. Win+Alt+R will record video of current window - unfortunately there's nothing for whole desktop. Not sure what's your problem with resizing windows but there are all kind of shortcuts for moving and resizing them if mouse is somehow too hard.

Maursault 4y ago

> What's funny ... it turns out that Apple is actually a decade behind. This is completely false. A year before Microsoft released Defender in 2006, Apple had already packaged AV scanning in Mac OS X Tiger Server[1] in 2005. ClamAV[2] is OSS, and easily installed on the client OS, and many did so and had been since its first release in 2002. The thing was, practically, there were no viruses on Mac OS X. The only reason Apple included ClamAV on the server was for scanning mail, because Mac OS X Server's mail server obviously also served Windows mail clients. IOW, Apple was fixing Microsoft's broken crap before Microsoft's own attempt to fix their broken crap.[3] The very first Mac OS X virus appeared in 2006, called Leap-A. That was one in 2006, when Microsoft Windows already had tens of thousands in the wild. Following Leap-A were a few proofs of concept, and it seemed like every year, there would be one new virus, worm or Trojan horse identified on Mac. But infection was exceedingly rare, compared to Windows that would ensure a new installation to be infected within 10 minutes of being connected to the Internet. By the mid-2010s there were dozens of identified malware on Mac, but infection was still a very rare exception. Meanwhile, Windows had hundreds of thousands of malware by then, and it was nearly impossible to prevent infection even with vigilant virus scanning; malware got through ordinarily. To this day, malware on macOS is pretty much a nonissue, and AV on Mac is only there primarily to prevent Windows machines on the same local network from being infected via Mac proxy. There has never been a widespread malware infection on Mac since Apple modernized their OS to BSD. Similarly, you never hear about malware on NetBSD, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD. There is good reason: unlike Windows, BSD is not fundamentally insecure. Malware developers go after the low hanging fruit, which is always pretty much only Microsoft Windows, and malware has plagued Microsoft's NT-based OS since inception. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Server#Mac_OS_X_Server_10.4_(Tiger) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_Server#Mac_OS_X_Server_1... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam_AntiVirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clam_AntiVirus [3] Had Microsoft Windows not been so dysfunctional, with Microsoft prone to actively breaking useful functionality in enterprise, Linux would never have become so popular. Linux's first best reason for existing was that Linux devs would quickly restore Windows' functionality within short order of Microsoft's removal of that functionality, within days or weeks. For years it was a cat and mouse game, with Linux's cat quickly catching Microsoft's mouse. This is how Linux got a foothold in the server room, which, as we know, exploded between 2011 and 2013 when Linux finally took over the datacenter.