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It takes the same time for an armored division to travel from coast to coast as it would for a legion to march across the Roman Empire, at least a week. Inerti

It takes the same time for an armored division to travel from coast to coast as it would for a legion to march across the Roman Empire, at least a week. Inertia isn't the problem, failure to take responsibility is. Although it does seem like inertia, a cornucopia of policies that can't be coped with, such as wastage that everyone turns a blind eye to, gradually increasing deficits of supply versus demand (for the Soviets it was grain (somehow Russia is now a grain exporter), for the Americans it is potholes). Numbers are worthless, most Romans were illiterate, and they didn't have Arabic numbers. Bafflingly illiterate workers and automated machines are economically equivalent, otherwise there wouldn't be such a difference between high school dropouts and graduates in work productivity. "The cause"? A failure to tolerate ambition, even when society converts into a fishbowl where everyone is neighbors. Unless ego is abolished and the most horrifying of social engineering programs could be enacted, the problems of late empire are simple: men like Robert Moses, condemned by equally corrupt later generations, are no longer permitted to ensure things run smoothly.

nerdponx 4y ago
Robert Moses isn't condemned for being corrupt, he's condemned for bad urban planning decisions that we are still paying steep prices for, decades later.
- sassy_quat 4y ago
  I suppose Robert Moses is the wrong man to bring up, though maybe my argument is flawed and should be totally ignored. I take it that you're taking that approach. Given the direction this argument is heading, perhaps urban planning could be simplified, pedestrian only neighborhoods with nearby parking garages provide a great incentive for people to shop at local small businesses instead of supermarkets being a one stop shop with everything from fresh starbucks to factory made bread. The French subsidize their local businesses and from what I hear, their communities are better for it. Naturally so many factors go into urban planning, and how to live in a dense community is something that will always be considered to be unexamined.
- hardwaregeek 4y ago
  Ehh little bit of both, no? He made bad decisions but he also made some of those for corrupt reasons like obeying his rich friends. And if you believe The Power Broker, by the apex of his power, he was effectively running the old state patronage system. Sure the main reason you'll hear about Moses these days would be his racist, aggressive, destructive urban planning, but the grift definitely didn't help.
OrvalWintermute 4y ago
> It takes the same time for an armored division to travel from coast to coast as it would for a legion to march across the Roman Empire, at least a week. This sounds like a dramatic underestimate in the case of heavy infantry (a legion). Elite infantry units similar to Scipio Africanus' legions went from Tarraco to Carthago at 26 miles per day forced march which is a pretty high rate of speed [1] Using the excellent Orbis site from Stanford [2], it is possible to calculate this at accurate detail @ ~179 days marching 30KM a day, from Tarraco to Alexandria, which is across the empire. Comparing that against an armored division, it would depend on which armored division since some are more road capable and limited mainly by fuel supplies. An M1A2 can go on roads at 45MPH and has a range of 265 miles. [1] https://www.academia.edu/4825296/Observations_on_marching_Roman_legionaries_velocities_energy_expenditure_column_formations_and_distances https://www.academia.edu/4825296/Observations_on_marching_Ro... [2] https://orbis.stanford.edu/ https://orbis.stanford.edu/
- Someone 4y ago
  Can an M1A2 ride across the USA without breaking down? Reading https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1789.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports..., page number 29 (page 53 of the PDF), it seems many would break down if driven only 375 km. That’s less than the range you claim they have. That’s one reasons why tanks, when not in action, get transported on trailers. The text even says “significant numbers of failures were recorded during months with zero usage”, indicating that keeping a M1 parked isn’t easy, either.
  - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
    You're conflating fleet size numbers with the individual. And, an armored division is designed to recover vehicles with their own trucks, while retaining mobility. Military planning is all about %s, e.g. 80% are functional based on a table of equipment (TOE) > That’s one reasons why tanks, when not in action, get transported on trailers. While that may be a minor reason, the actual big reasons are the most current M1A2 SEP tanks at ~147,200 pounds destroy roads, convoy operations are a giant pain, tanks are an immense hazard to trucks and cars, and the fuel consumption is off the charts, making this not economical. > The text even says “significant numbers of failures were recorded during months with zero usage”, indicating that keeping a M1 parked isn’t easy, either. Zero usage doen't mean that preventitive maintenance checks & services cease. Given that even idling a 1500hp turbine for maintenance is a major undertaking that is a good amount of start/stop and usage of the entire system, even if getting no road time.
thom 4y ago
I suspect we have different feelings about the individuals involved, but I have the same takeaway from studying the period. One of the fundamental concerns of civilisation is the management of warlords. You can wish that highly ambitious, capable people don’t arise and choose to accumulate power, but that isn’t going to stop them. You need a system that puts them to productive, non-violent uses and this to me is a strong argument for capitalism. It gives would-be warlords a way to service their ambitions that can generally be a benefit to society.
- sassy_quat 4y ago
  Alternatively in a scarcity system with anxiety over one's own future, absolute authority becomes more desirable, not less. The only law that could be removed to prevent this would be the law of nature, since the only greater driving force than one's legacy is to promote the future of one's own children (the least mentioned failing of socialist societies). The existence of a warlord tendency isn't totally abolished with capitalism, it is only mitigated by pressures to conform which is problematic for modern society versus Victorian or 50s society because various brands or artists wish precisely to stand out. There is no way for anything to ultimately be a benefit to society without any understanding that one is part of a greater whole, which will be an interesting argument to present to anyone involved in designing curriculums.

nerdponx 4y ago

Robert Moses isn't condemned for being corrupt, he's condemned for bad urban planning decisions that we are still paying steep prices for, decades later.

sassy_quat 4y ago
I suppose Robert Moses is the wrong man to bring up, though maybe my argument is flawed and should be totally ignored. I take it that you're taking that approach. Given the direction this argument is heading, perhaps urban planning could be simplified, pedestrian only neighborhoods with nearby parking garages provide a great incentive for people to shop at local small businesses instead of supermarkets being a one stop shop with everything from fresh starbucks to factory made bread. The French subsidize their local businesses and from what I hear, their communities are better for it. Naturally so many factors go into urban planning, and how to live in a dense community is something that will always be considered to be unexamined.
hardwaregeek 4y ago
Ehh little bit of both, no? He made bad decisions but he also made some of those for corrupt reasons like obeying his rich friends. And if you believe The Power Broker, by the apex of his power, he was effectively running the old state patronage system. Sure the main reason you'll hear about Moses these days would be his racist, aggressive, destructive urban planning, but the grift definitely didn't help.

OrvalWintermute 4y ago

> It takes the same time for an armored division to travel from coast to coast as it would for a legion to march across the Roman Empire, at least a week. This sounds like a dramatic underestimate in the case of heavy infantry (a legion). Elite infantry units similar to Scipio Africanus' legions went from Tarraco to Carthago at 26 miles per day forced march which is a pretty high rate of speed [1] Using the excellent Orbis site from Stanford [2], it is possible to calculate this at accurate detail @ ~179 days marching 30KM a day, from Tarraco to Alexandria, which is across the empire. Comparing that against an armored division, it would depend on which armored division since some are more road capable and limited mainly by fuel supplies. An M1A2 can go on roads at 45MPH and has a range of 265 miles. [1] https://www.academia.edu/4825296/Observations_on_marching_Roman_legionaries_velocities_energy_expenditure_column_formations_and_distances https://www.academia.edu/4825296/Observations_on_marching_Ro... [2] https://orbis.stanford.edu/ https://orbis.stanford.edu/

Someone 4y ago
Can an M1A2 ride across the USA without breaking down? Reading https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1789.pdf https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports..., page number 29 (page 53 of the PDF), it seems many would break down if driven only 375 km. That’s less than the range you claim they have. That’s one reasons why tanks, when not in action, get transported on trailers. The text even says “significant numbers of failures were recorded during months with zero usage”, indicating that keeping a M1 parked isn’t easy, either.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  You're conflating fleet size numbers with the individual. And, an armored division is designed to recover vehicles with their own trucks, while retaining mobility. Military planning is all about %s, e.g. 80% are functional based on a table of equipment (TOE) > That’s one reasons why tanks, when not in action, get transported on trailers. While that may be a minor reason, the actual big reasons are the most current M1A2 SEP tanks at ~147,200 pounds destroy roads, convoy operations are a giant pain, tanks are an immense hazard to trucks and cars, and the fuel consumption is off the charts, making this not economical. > The text even says “significant numbers of failures were recorded during months with zero usage”, indicating that keeping a M1 parked isn’t easy, either. Zero usage doen't mean that preventitive maintenance checks & services cease. Given that even idling a 1500hp turbine for maintenance is a major undertaking that is a good amount of start/stop and usage of the entire system, even if getting no road time.

thom 4y ago

I suspect we have different feelings about the individuals involved, but I have the same takeaway from studying the period. One of the fundamental concerns of civilisation is the management of warlords. You can wish that highly ambitious, capable people don’t arise and choose to accumulate power, but that isn’t going to stop them. You need a system that puts them to productive, non-violent uses and this to me is a strong argument for capitalism. It gives would-be warlords a way to service their ambitions that can generally be a benefit to society.

sassy_quat 4y ago
Alternatively in a scarcity system with anxiety over one's own future, absolute authority becomes more desirable, not less. The only law that could be removed to prevent this would be the law of nature, since the only greater driving force than one's legacy is to promote the future of one's own children (the least mentioned failing of socialist societies). The existence of a warlord tendency isn't totally abolished with capitalism, it is only mitigated by pressures to conform which is problematic for modern society versus Victorian or 50s society because various brands or artists wish precisely to stand out. There is no way for anything to ultimately be a benefit to society without any understanding that one is part of a greater whole, which will be an interesting argument to present to anyone involved in designing curriculums.