3 ms·

While the author very clearly is at least a bit out of touch (no one's living off chips and soda), the fact is that cheap calories do tend to come from unhealth

by jjk166 4y ago

While the author very clearly is at least a bit out of touch (no one's living off chips and soda), the fact is that cheap calories do tend to come from unhealthy sources, particularly if they make up the bulk of your diet. For example peanut butter on white bread - super cheap and quick to make, but living off of it is going to ruin your body. The biggest issues are the hidden costs of healthy foods. When people complain about processed foods, they often forget what the point of processing the food is: making it last longer. You can buy lots of it and store it for long periods of time without much difficulty. For fresh produce you're buying smaller amounts (less discounted) and you need to buy it more frequently (more time wasted shopping, higher commuting costs). Then of course there is cooking - when you've been slaving away at a low paying job all day, the prospect of spending an hour and a half preparing something nice is extremely unappealing compared to something you can just stick in the microwave for 2 minutes. The mass produced and highly processed foods are optimized for convenience - they cook quickly and consistently with minimal effort. Honestly this more than price alone is likely the reason the nominally wealthiest nation in the world has such poor nutrition. Even at minimum wage, a half hour difference in cooking time probably dwarfs the price of the actual difference in price between two food brands for all but the most expensive options. The claim people just need to make better choices is a non-starter. Essentially no one wants to be fat and unhealthy, and all else being equal would not choose to be. But all else is not equal. Other factors are influencing the decision making process such that eating unhealthily is the lesser of two evils. If you want people to make different choices, you need to address why they are making their current choices, regardless of what those factors may be.

tharkun__ 4y ago
Your example of what will ruin your body is interesting. Peanut butter and white bread. But why is that going to ruin your body? Pure peanut butter is actually quite healthy. It's got lots of good fats and other nutrients. Just don't buy it salted or sugary and leave out the white bread. Put it on vegetables, made into a sauce. The vegetables can be frozen and the sauce is made in the time it takes to microwave unfreeze and 'cook' the frozen veggies. Just to counter your "microwave for 2 minutes" example. Another great, filling and healthy choice: frozen peas, microwaved, put Mayo on top, stir. And those are just to replace the quick "white bread w/ peanut butter" choice. Want something nicer, e.g. an equivalent of an unhealthy Kraft Dinner? Make Baked Beans. These are great because you can make them from healthy dried beans (cheap) and any meat you can find. If you want (can afford) bacon, that's great but any cheap meat you find works. The beans go in the oven for 8 hours at low temp w/ the meat, water, salt, pepper, some sugar to taste - as in, less than bought baked beans! - and mustard. You can leave this in the oven over night if you don't have an 8 hour stretch where you're at home otherwise but put more water. You do want to have a large bean pot for doing that ideally but it's a lifetime purchase. These baked beans you can eat all by themselves. Keep in fridge, i.e. microwave portions when needed. Add cheese on top if you like or use as a side or as filling for a burrito/quesadilla. Those 'dishes' take less than 5 minutes to make. E.g. Quesadilla you just heat up a pan while doing something else (like turning on the TV and finding a series to watch or whatever) and slapping the ingredients down in the pan. Cook for a minute or so on each side. Burrito on the other hand is microwaveable.
- legitster 4y ago
  My favorite in college was mashed potatoes. Cheap, easy, and tasty. And come to find out later, surprisingly nutrient rich.
- jjk166 4y ago
  That wasn't the example I gave. The issue is living exclusively off peanut butter and white bread. Specifically it is the lack of dietary variety to get a proper mix of various nutrients which is the issue. There are lots of things out there that will give you about 80% of what you need, the issue is that all the cheap options are giving you roughly the same 80%, consistently and completely filling in that gap is hard. For example iodine is critical for regulating metabolism, but most foods which contain significant amounts (like seafood) are expensive, and cheaper sources (like eggs) need to be consumed in large amounts, offsetting their low expense, and causing other issues balancing diet. If you have an iodine deficiency you don't die, but with your metabolism out of whack it is again harder to maintain your health. Now if you go to your doctor they might be able to identify an iodine deficiency and get you supplements or have you buy specialty products like iodized salt, but this reduces to the more general problem that healthcare in the US is incredibly messed up and disproportionately difficult for those in poverty to access reliably. 92% of the US population has some vitamin or nutrient deficiency. Basically, mistaking the malnutrition issue as just people not having access to a good cookbook is exactly the problem.
legitster 4y ago
I just think it's a mistake to instinctively associate wealth to diet quality. When I was poor I had time and incentive to do a lot more home cooking. Now that I'm doing okay, I eat out much more and eat more convenience items. Trader Joe's has a fairly well-to-do clientele, but the store is little but packaged and frozen processed foods. In my mind, it's a much stronger connection to point out that wealth and delayed gratification are very, very highly correlated. So I think the relationship is backwards.
panick21_ 4y ago
This is partly a large problem with urban planning and requiring to drive to get food. So people end up buying lots of food in few trips. Compared to places where people walk, its easy to just pick up what you need almost every day.
As_You_Wish 4y ago
First, hope the below doesn't sound mean, I'm just being direct. Direct without being a jerk, I hope. :P In my super strong opinion, everything, everything that you write is incorrect, except for maybe very few exceptions. I'm going to use a metaphor here. What you say is incorrect in the sense that if you are in Seattle Washington, and decide to drive to Portland, Oregon, but don't because you say that you have to drive From Seattle to Maine, then down to Florida, over to San Diego, then up to Portland. And it takes 30 days and $5,000 to do that loop. So you say it is too difficult and expensive and time-consuming to travel from Seattle to Portland, Oregon. I mean, if someone doesn't know how to drive directly south from Seattle to Portland for 3 hours because they don't bother looking at a map, and insists that it takes 30 days and $5,000 in travel costs to go from Seattle to Portland, what do you want me to do about it? I can't help everyone that doesn't know how to figure shit out. The reality is that one can buy fresh food and make it last, buy in larger quatities, spend less time cooking than shopping. I know this because I actually do this. This is not "theory." I see people write what you just wrote all the time and I'm convinced that people like you are just repeating what you read other people wrote, and don't think it through or read on how to actually solve those non-existent issues that you just raised incorrectly. You and so many others are taking the long way from Seattle to Portland and think that is the way to do it, and you don't get how you can drive south for 3 hours instead of 30 days. >The claim people just need to make better choices is a non-starter. It is a total starter. I guess one has to have knowledge before one can make the correct choices, though. But if one knows, it is the simplist and easiest thing in the world, but it takes that dreaded action: learning something new and throwing away the old worldview, which is SUPER difficult, I admit. >all else being equal would not choose to be. Not true, completely not true. >But all else is not equal. Yes it is. In first world countries, we have everything. Everything. >If you want people to make different choices, you need to address why they are making their current choices, regardless of what those factors may be. I agree with this, but this is really a situation for psychiatrists and therapists. I have the time or therapy background or ability to talk to people 3 times a week for months at a time to change their behavior and thought patterns.. It takes a long time and a lot of effort for someone to change their own minds, and most will flat out refuse. I'm 100% positive that if I create a house attached to a grocery store that only stocked healthy vegetables and healthy fruits and healthy dairy, and no unhealthy foods, and the nearest place that people could buy junk food is 5 miles away, I'm totally convinced that people would make the long trek to get their Doritos and Twinkies and donuts. 100% convinced.

by jjk166 4y ago

tharkun__ 4y ago

Your example of what will ruin your body is interesting. Peanut butter and white bread. But why is that going to ruin your body? Pure peanut butter is actually quite healthy. It's got lots of good fats and other nutrients. Just don't buy it salted or sugary and leave out the white bread. Put it on vegetables, made into a sauce. The vegetables can be frozen and the sauce is made in the time it takes to microwave unfreeze and 'cook' the frozen veggies. Just to counter your "microwave for 2 minutes" example. Another great, filling and healthy choice: frozen peas, microwaved, put Mayo on top, stir. And those are just to replace the quick "white bread w/ peanut butter" choice. Want something nicer, e.g. an equivalent of an unhealthy Kraft Dinner? Make Baked Beans. These are great because you can make them from healthy dried beans (cheap) and any meat you can find. If you want (can afford) bacon, that's great but any cheap meat you find works. The beans go in the oven for 8 hours at low temp w/ the meat, water, salt, pepper, some sugar to taste - as in, less than bought baked beans! - and mustard. You can leave this in the oven over night if you don't have an 8 hour stretch where you're at home otherwise but put more water. You do want to have a large bean pot for doing that ideally but it's a lifetime purchase. These baked beans you can eat all by themselves. Keep in fridge, i.e. microwave portions when needed. Add cheese on top if you like or use as a side or as filling for a burrito/quesadilla. Those 'dishes' take less than 5 minutes to make. E.g. Quesadilla you just heat up a pan while doing something else (like turning on the TV and finding a series to watch or whatever) and slapping the ingredients down in the pan. Cook for a minute or so on each side. Burrito on the other hand is microwaveable.

legitster 4y ago
My favorite in college was mashed potatoes. Cheap, easy, and tasty. And come to find out later, surprisingly nutrient rich.
jjk166 4y ago
That wasn't the example I gave. The issue is living exclusively off peanut butter and white bread. Specifically it is the lack of dietary variety to get a proper mix of various nutrients which is the issue. There are lots of things out there that will give you about 80% of what you need, the issue is that all the cheap options are giving you roughly the same 80%, consistently and completely filling in that gap is hard. For example iodine is critical for regulating metabolism, but most foods which contain significant amounts (like seafood) are expensive, and cheaper sources (like eggs) need to be consumed in large amounts, offsetting their low expense, and causing other issues balancing diet. If you have an iodine deficiency you don't die, but with your metabolism out of whack it is again harder to maintain your health. Now if you go to your doctor they might be able to identify an iodine deficiency and get you supplements or have you buy specialty products like iodized salt, but this reduces to the more general problem that healthcare in the US is incredibly messed up and disproportionately difficult for those in poverty to access reliably. 92% of the US population has some vitamin or nutrient deficiency. Basically, mistaking the malnutrition issue as just people not having access to a good cookbook is exactly the problem.

legitster 4y ago

I just think it's a mistake to instinctively associate wealth to diet quality. When I was poor I had time and incentive to do a lot more home cooking. Now that I'm doing okay, I eat out much more and eat more convenience items. Trader Joe's has a fairly well-to-do clientele, but the store is little but packaged and frozen processed foods. In my mind, it's a much stronger connection to point out that wealth and delayed gratification are very, very highly correlated. So I think the relationship is backwards.

panick21_ 4y ago

This is partly a large problem with urban planning and requiring to drive to get food. So people end up buying lots of food in few trips. Compared to places where people walk, its easy to just pick up what you need almost every day.

As_You_Wish 4y ago

First, hope the below doesn't sound mean, I'm just being direct. Direct without being a jerk, I hope. :P In my super strong opinion, everything, everything that you write is incorrect, except for maybe very few exceptions. I'm going to use a metaphor here. What you say is incorrect in the sense that if you are in Seattle Washington, and decide to drive to Portland, Oregon, but don't because you say that you have to drive From Seattle to Maine, then down to Florida, over to San Diego, then up to Portland. And it takes 30 days and $5,000 to do that loop. So you say it is too difficult and expensive and time-consuming to travel from Seattle to Portland, Oregon. I mean, if someone doesn't know how to drive directly south from Seattle to Portland for 3 hours because they don't bother looking at a map, and insists that it takes 30 days and $5,000 in travel costs to go from Seattle to Portland, what do you want me to do about it? I can't help everyone that doesn't know how to figure shit out. The reality is that one can buy fresh food and make it last, buy in larger quatities, spend less time cooking than shopping. I know this because I actually do this. This is not "theory." I see people write what you just wrote all the time and I'm convinced that people like you are just repeating what you read other people wrote, and don't think it through or read on how to actually solve those non-existent issues that you just raised incorrectly. You and so many others are taking the long way from Seattle to Portland and think that is the way to do it, and you don't get how you can drive south for 3 hours instead of 30 days. >The claim people just need to make better choices is a non-starter. It is a total starter. I guess one has to have knowledge before one can make the correct choices, though. But if one knows, it is the simplist and easiest thing in the world, but it takes that dreaded action: learning something new and throwing away the old worldview, which is SUPER difficult, I admit. >all else being equal would not choose to be. Not true, completely not true. >But all else is not equal. Yes it is. In first world countries, we have everything. Everything. >If you want people to make different choices, you need to address why they are making their current choices, regardless of what those factors may be. I agree with this, but this is really a situation for psychiatrists and therapists. I have the time or therapy background or ability to talk to people 3 times a week for months at a time to change their behavior and thought patterns.. It takes a long time and a lot of effort for someone to change their own minds, and most will flat out refuse. I'm 100% positive that if I create a house attached to a grocery store that only stocked healthy vegetables and healthy fruits and healthy dairy, and no unhealthy foods, and the nearest place that people could buy junk food is 5 miles away, I'm totally convinced that people would make the long trek to get their Doritos and Twinkies and donuts. 100% convinced.