5 ms·

Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and i

by sofixa 4y ago

Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense. * depends on how you define "high" levels of migration, but few EU countries fit that. Portugal does, because they explicitly encourage it. Why? Nothing to do with the EU, they're trying to fight negative population growth. * social programs aren't an EU thing, they're purely local. And the "too much social spending makes people not want to work" ia such bullshit. * there are more local regulations than EU regulations. Which ones specifically are you referring to as too much? * farming is explicitly subsidised to make it profitable. What are you talking about? * not everyone can move between EU countries, you need to be a citizen. Like the Portuguese that have moved all around (e.g. there are probably millions of people of Portuguese descent in France) It's annoying how popular empty nationalistic populists have gotten. Can't nobody bother to fact check their bullshit?

groby_b 4y ago
Nationalist populists really have never bothered with facts. People fact-check, but that's too late - the message is out, and it makes people feel better about themselves. That's all that matters. Truth doesn't enter. (We could now add the Satre quote, or Hannah Arendt, or any number of people who've written about this. The popularity of the feel-good lie is well-inspected.)
tuatoru 4y ago
Yeah, facts. Demographics explains most of what's going on. Portugal's working age population is declining[1] while its 60-plus population is increasing.[2] Old people own most of the real estate and don't care much about workers. They also tend not to like change, which immigrants bring. So they dislike immigrants despite depending on them. (//TODO: find papers supporting these assertions: they're factoids of the "everyone knows" type.) 1. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/15-64/620 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/15-64... 2. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/60plus/620 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/60plu...
- zizee 4y ago
  I'm struggling to follow your arguments. "Boomers don't like immigrants/workers, therefore life is getting really expensive" doesn't really sound like good reasoning. If the population is shrinking, demographics doesn't explain it by itself. Housing should be getting cheaper if there are less people competing for it. There must be another factor here.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    You’re forgetting household size. As with all wealthy countries, household size has fallen in Portugal over the past few decades, so the same amount of people needs more house. This is especially true in the context of empty nest retirees.
    - zizee 4y ago
      So that could be one of the extra factors that we're looking for. People want/expect more, which has caused people to have to pay more. But I'm doubtful that it is going to account for a lot of the cost of living issue in Portugal. I'd still like the GP to connect the dots for me on his "it's all demographics" argument. It sounds like are argument you hear on Reddit.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - bcrosby95 4y ago
        I think you're missing the point. For example, when my siblings were kids we all lived in 1 house. I have 3 siblings so there were 6 of us including my parents. In 1 house. As we graduated from college we moved out. Now there were 6 of us in 5 houses. Beyond the raw house count, you're going to need more space. Multi-bedroom homes have shared common space. The house we grew up in had 1 dining room, 1 kitchen, 1 living room, 4 bedrooms, and 2 bathrooms. If we each moved out on our own, we now needed a minimum of 5 dining rooms, 5 kitchens, 5 living rooms, 5 bedrooms, and 5 bathrooms. The number of people is the same. Still just 6. But we needed more housing and more space since we didn't share common space anymore. We didn't expect more than we had before (well, beyond the practicalities - it's difficult to share a bathroom with someone you don't live with), we expected the same as we had before we moved out.
mistermann 4y ago
> Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense. It's fascinating how subjective dimensions of reality have the appearance of being objective, and how this seems to be increasing over time.

by sofixa 4y ago

groby_b 4y ago

Nationalist populists really have never bothered with facts. People fact-check, but that's too late - the message is out, and it makes people feel better about themselves. That's all that matters. Truth doesn't enter. (We could now add the Satre quote, or Hannah Arendt, or any number of people who've written about this. The popularity of the feel-good lie is well-inspected.)

tuatoru 4y ago

Yeah, facts. Demographics explains most of what's going on. Portugal's working age population is declining[1] while its 60-plus population is increasing.[2] Old people own most of the real estate and don't care much about workers. They also tend not to like change, which immigrants bring. So they dislike immigrants despite depending on them. (//TODO: find papers supporting these assertions: they're factoids of the "everyone knows" type.) 1. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/15-64/620 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/15-64... 2. https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/60plus/620 https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/Probabilistic/POP/60plu...

zizee 4y ago
I'm struggling to follow your arguments. "Boomers don't like immigrants/workers, therefore life is getting really expensive" doesn't really sound like good reasoning. If the population is shrinking, demographics doesn't explain it by itself. Housing should be getting cheaper if there are less people competing for it. There must be another factor here.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  You’re forgetting household size. As with all wealthy countries, household size has fallen in Portugal over the past few decades, so the same amount of people needs more house. This is especially true in the context of empty nest retirees.
  - zizee 4y ago
    So that could be one of the extra factors that we're looking for. People want/expect more, which has caused people to have to pay more. But I'm doubtful that it is going to account for a lot of the cost of living issue in Portugal. I'd still like the GP to connect the dots for me on his "it's all demographics" argument. It sounds like are argument you hear on Reddit.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - bcrosby95 4y ago
      I think you're missing the point. For example, when my siblings were kids we all lived in 1 house. I have 3 siblings so there were 6 of us including my parents. In 1 house. As we graduated from college we moved out. Now there were 6 of us in 5 houses. Beyond the raw house count, you're going to need more space. Multi-bedroom homes have shared common space. The house we grew up in had 1 dining room, 1 kitchen, 1 living room, 4 bedrooms, and 2 bathrooms. If we each moved out on our own, we now needed a minimum of 5 dining rooms, 5 kitchens, 5 living rooms, 5 bedrooms, and 5 bathrooms. The number of people is the same. Still just 6. But we needed more housing and more space since we didn't share common space anymore. We didn't expect more than we had before (well, beyond the practicalities - it's difficult to share a bathroom with someone you don't live with), we expected the same as we had before we moved out.

mistermann 4y ago

> Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense. It's fascinating how subjective dimensions of reality have the appearance of being objective, and how this seems to be increasing over time.