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>"why are we raising children this way when we weren't raised this way ourselves?" Because CPS will come and you'll be charged with child endangerment if you l

>"why are we raising children this way when we weren't raised this way ourselves?" Because CPS will come and you'll be charged with child endangerment if you let your kid have "too much" independence. And naturally the kids will ask questions about why they can't do this or that, and many people will know "because CPS would take you away" is a bad answer (or one the kid will ignore) so they lie about the dangers. It's a shit sandwich situation to be in.

Hackbraten 4y ago
> Because CPS will come and you'll be charged with child endangerment if you let your kid have "too much" independence. How often does that actually happen?
- notch656a 4y ago
  How often would it have to happen for you to risk your right to vote, defend your family, get any reasonably well paying job, and retain custody of your children? If you search for something as simple as "charged for leaving child at park" there's no shortage of anecdata, and many if not most aren't something crazy like abandonment. The laws in my state are vague enough that parents can and have been criminally charged for merely letting a confident 7 y/o play at the park while they briefly ran an errand. Unfortunately the state doesn't keep statistics like "how often did we frivolously charge parents."
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    > How often would it have to happen for you to risk your right to vote, defend your family, get any reasonably well paying job, and retain custody of your children? Okay so you don't know and if we look at the numbers this is just fear mongering.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I never claimed to know the numbers. You've made the assertion "if we look at the numbers this is just fear mongering." Now it's time to show your proof, what is the numbers. I'm very curious because my own state keeps no statistics on what percent of their charges are frivelous.
      - krainboltgreene 4y ago
        That's why this is fear mongering, because you're insisting that it's very concerning and thus you should act on it, when in reality it's not that concerning a problem: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/canstats.pdf https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/canstats.pdf Of the 73M children in america - Of which 7.9 million children went through CPS - Of which 16% were substantiated (1.2M) and received services - 22.9 percent of those (275k) were removed from their home.
        notch656a 4y ago
        First of all I appreciate showing the numbers of removals. You've shown the number of removals is sky high -- 0.3% number of removals PER YEAR as there are children. While the same child may be removed multiple times, were it the case it were a unique child each time that would come out to a roughly 5% chance of a removal over the period of custody. Of course CPS will claim basically all those removals are valid, but we have very little independent third party verification to see if that is actually the case. Unfortunately, again, you were unable to provide what percent of charges (or in your presentation, removals) are actually frivolous. You counter a very small chance of stranger kidnapping (less than 1k a year) with "legitimate" CPS kidnapping at 275k a year. Orders of magnitude more relevant -- Wow! So you have really no data to present here, other than a ceiling of roughly 5% chance at the worst, which is absolutely bone-chillingly large. Plenty significant enough to take it seriously when you see people being charged for letting their kid play at the park. People take precautions about pools and guns, etc, both of which have a lower percent chance than our possible CPS ceiling here of unexpectedly removing the child from your arms.
        krainboltgreene 4y ago
    - Hermitian909 4y ago
      > this is just fear mongering. Not OP, I don't think it's fear mongering. The actual numbers are immaterial, all that matters is whether parents are scared that this might happen. If they're scared, they'll avoid leaving their children unattended. As a former educator I can confirm that many parents are scared, and that this fear is likely to continue so long as stories of these laws being enforced hit the news once every few years. We can average 1-2 cases every few years and as long as they get the right broadcast, that's all it takes.
      - krainboltgreene 4y ago
        The implication the parent is that you should be afraid of the thing happening a lot when in reality it doesn't happen with any statistical significance unless you happen to be in a special set like Native Americans (due to historical government actions). This is the definition of fear mongering.
        notch656a 4y ago
        You just proved CPS takes action way more than the kind of fear mongering stuff (stranger kidnapping / stranger commiting murder). For instance, in the largest county in my state up to 60% of black homes may end up investigated by the time the child is 18. [0] Fear mongering? https://imprintnews.org/child-welfare-2/nearly-half-of-children-experience-cps-investigations/57396 https://imprintnews.org/child-welfare-2/nearly-half-of-child...
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
lolinder 4y ago
Free range parenting laws are the answer. Three states have passed legislation that clarifies that "neglect" does not include allowing children to engage in independent activities. In said states, parents can be much more confident that nosy neighbors can't ruin their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_parenting#Legal_protections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_parenting#Legal_pro...

Hackbraten 4y ago

> Because CPS will come and you'll be charged with child endangerment if you let your kid have "too much" independence. How often does that actually happen?

notch656a 4y ago
How often would it have to happen for you to risk your right to vote, defend your family, get any reasonably well paying job, and retain custody of your children? If you search for something as simple as "charged for leaving child at park" there's no shortage of anecdata, and many if not most aren't something crazy like abandonment. The laws in my state are vague enough that parents can and have been criminally charged for merely letting a confident 7 y/o play at the park while they briefly ran an errand. Unfortunately the state doesn't keep statistics like "how often did we frivolously charge parents."
- krainboltgreene 4y ago
  > How often would it have to happen for you to risk your right to vote, defend your family, get any reasonably well paying job, and retain custody of your children? Okay so you don't know and if we look at the numbers this is just fear mongering.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I never claimed to know the numbers. You've made the assertion "if we look at the numbers this is just fear mongering." Now it's time to show your proof, what is the numbers. I'm very curious because my own state keeps no statistics on what percent of their charges are frivelous.
    - krainboltgreene 4y ago
      That's why this is fear mongering, because you're insisting that it's very concerning and thus you should act on it, when in reality it's not that concerning a problem: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/canstats.pdf https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubpdfs/canstats.pdf Of the 73M children in america - Of which 7.9 million children went through CPS - Of which 16% were substantiated (1.2M) and received services - 22.9 percent of those (275k) were removed from their home.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        First of all I appreciate showing the numbers of removals. You've shown the number of removals is sky high -- 0.3% number of removals PER YEAR as there are children. While the same child may be removed multiple times, were it the case it were a unique child each time that would come out to a roughly 5% chance of a removal over the period of custody. Of course CPS will claim basically all those removals are valid, but we have very little independent third party verification to see if that is actually the case. Unfortunately, again, you were unable to provide what percent of charges (or in your presentation, removals) are actually frivolous. You counter a very small chance of stranger kidnapping (less than 1k a year) with "legitimate" CPS kidnapping at 275k a year. Orders of magnitude more relevant -- Wow! So you have really no data to present here, other than a ceiling of roughly 5% chance at the worst, which is absolutely bone-chillingly large. Plenty significant enough to take it seriously when you see people being charged for letting their kid play at the park. People take precautions about pools and guns, etc, both of which have a lower percent chance than our possible CPS ceiling here of unexpectedly removing the child from your arms.
        krainboltgreene 4y ago
  - Hermitian909 4y ago
    > this is just fear mongering. Not OP, I don't think it's fear mongering. The actual numbers are immaterial, all that matters is whether parents are scared that this might happen. If they're scared, they'll avoid leaving their children unattended. As a former educator I can confirm that many parents are scared, and that this fear is likely to continue so long as stories of these laws being enforced hit the news once every few years. We can average 1-2 cases every few years and as long as they get the right broadcast, that's all it takes.
    - krainboltgreene 4y ago
      The implication the parent is that you should be afraid of the thing happening a lot when in reality it doesn't happen with any statistical significance unless you happen to be in a special set like Native Americans (due to historical government actions). This is the definition of fear mongering.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        You just proved CPS takes action way more than the kind of fear mongering stuff (stranger kidnapping / stranger commiting murder). For instance, in the largest county in my state up to 60% of black homes may end up investigated by the time the child is 18. [0] Fear mongering? https://imprintnews.org/child-welfare-2/nearly-half-of-children-experience-cps-investigations/57396 https://imprintnews.org/child-welfare-2/nearly-half-of-child...
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

lolinder 4y ago

Free range parenting laws are the answer. Three states have passed legislation that clarifies that "neglect" does not include allowing children to engage in independent activities. In said states, parents can be much more confident that nosy neighbors can't ruin their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_parenting#Legal_protections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_parenting#Legal_pro...