5 ms·

Yup. Follow the money. Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington, claiming they're tired of paying for

Yup. Follow the money. Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington, claiming they're tired of paying for the red states. They can use the rhetoric of Alberta and Quebec if they wish... Perhaps compromise might be possible in future generations, cuz it's not a useful word today. Political polarization is pretty impressive worldwide at the moment.

RichardCNormos 4y ago
It will be interesting if the red states stop selling food to the blue ones. There are plenty of buyers overseas.
- tayo42 4y ago
  Pretty sure most of our human food comes from places like Mexico. Red state America mostly just grows stuff like corn. Idk if alot of that corn is even edible for people iirc
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    Its commercial corn for feedlots and "bio-fuels": ie converting 1 gallon of diesel into 0.9 gallons of bio-fuels.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Nope. America's a strong net exporter of food.
    - tayo42 4y ago
      that's not really how this works. just because a country export doesn't mean the country doesn't rely on imports see stuff like this https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/dining/fruit-vegetables-imports.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/dining/fruit-vegetables-i...
      - spywaregorilla 4y ago
        https://www.wlj.net/top_headlines/americans-consume-mostly-u-s--made-food-produce/article_a76f95f0-5857-11e8-8922-47f84163101f.html https://www.wlj.net/top_headlines/americans-consume-mostly-u... Or if you want the latest raw data from the USDA Economic Research Service, you can grab it here: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/international-markets-u-s-trade/u-s-agricultural-trade/u-s-agricultural-trade-at-a-glance/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/international-markets-u-s-tr... It's true, many fresh produce foods are imported, but the majority (~80%) of food consumed in the US is domestically produced / grown.
        tayo42 4y ago
        I think we're talking about different things. That 80% includes things like candy, beer, cereal. America isn't going to collapse if that disappeared.
        spywaregorilla 4y ago
        I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. 80% reduction in food would be catastrophic and its puzzling to imagine otherwise. Not to mention the fact that a lot of that same food supply is exported to food insecure countries. It disappearing isn't on the table though. Candy is not a large part of the American diet so it's not really that meaningful to call out its inclusion. American agriculture is going to be more important than ever in light of the coming (present?) gas crisis. I'm not well informed enough to make a comment on Mexico but I would wager they're likely in a pretty good spot too.
        tayo42 4y ago
        The post I responded to was about red states being petty and stop selling food to blue states. That's like real food like produce. Not total food and beverage. But sure looking at something expensive like candy About 37billion in sales https://www.foodbeverageinsider.com/market-trends-analysis/us-chocolate-candy-sales-rise-again https://www.foodbeverageinsider.com/market-trends-analysis/u... Compared to 70ish billion of produce https://theproducenews.com/headlines/produce-department-sales-top-71-billion-see-continued-growth https://theproducenews.com/headlines/produce-department-sale... That seems significant for all good and beverage sales. Nevermind alcohol, which I'm pretty sure was included in that first 80% number. Look at a supermarket, how much of that is real food. I think my local one has 3-4 aisles of snacks and candy
- jleyank 4y ago
  The red states might grow it, but who owns the farms? I'm willing to bet there's not a lot of family farms left, and the conglomerates will go wherever the cash is best. Same with oil, as it's fungible.
  - bediger4000 4y ago
    There are hardly any family farms left. That way of life got swept away in the economic changes of the 1950s - 1990s.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  Would probably improve the diets and health of the union since all they produce is government subsidized corn garbage anyway.
- luma 4y ago
  And the blue states have plenty of money to buy food from wherever they like. The minority of America picking this fight are going to have a difficult time dealing with the results if they ever get their way. The country doesn’t need this line of thinking and it benefits nobody but Putin.
- bmismyname 4y ago
  California is the biggest producer of food in the US, by a huge margin (about 50% more than Iowa, the #2 producer). https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17844 https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17844 I would like to see how it breaks down by red vs. blue, and I suspect there might be a slight edge for team red, but California in particular fills an important niche of supplying most of the non-grain foods, and can produce food year round. However California is probably going to lose its status as #1 as aridification continues.
  - silisili 4y ago
    This argument doesn't hold much water when the people in California making the food are overwhelmingly red themselves. What happens if they leave, or decide to make their own little state? We shouldn't be bragging about punishments of blue vs red at all, because should such a thing occur everyone is going to have a much worse quality of life, blue or red.
    - nostrademons 4y ago
      The land makes the food, the people just tend the land. If the people move out new people move in to fill that vacuum. That's exactly what happens now with migrant labor.
      - dmitrygr 4y ago
        Do you also think that factories make widgets, and the people working there just press buttons? Text editors make software, and programmers just mash on keyboards? There’s a lot more to farming than tending to the land. Crops don’t magically grow. Your simplistic view of it is both insulting to those who farm and dangerous.
        nostrademons 4y ago
        Once labor gets commoditized, yes. The factories do make the the widgets, with the people working there pushing buttons. That's why there's all this hand-wringing about immigration, cheap foreign competition, unions dissolving, worker bargaining power, and capitalist abuses. If the workers made the products they'd just find new factories and this wouldn't be an issue. Programmers for now do make the software, in that there's a dramatic difference in the ability of a good programmer vs. a mediocre programmer to actually complete a project, and they're compensated accordingly. That'll likely change in a decade or so, though. Then the software will be largely already written, and it'll be maintained by management structures with commodity programmers slotting into roles in the org chart. It's already happening for many roles. It's a perspective shift from "here's a laborer making a product" to "here's a role for how the product is made, and any number of different laborers could slot into it", and it happens when there are enough people with the skills to make the product that any one of them can slot into it.
- danaris 4y ago
  Hi, blue state New York here. I have no idea what actual percentage of the state's land is farms, but...I'm certainly surrounded by them. Many miles of farmland; plenty, at least, to supply the people around here, if used efficiently. The idea that "blue states are urban" and "red states are rural" is just plain wrong. There are cities in red states (though some red states don't have any large cities in them), and there's plenty of rural land in blue states. Welcome to nuance.
- bfgoodrich 4y ago
itsoktocry 4y ago
>Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington Thinking of it state by state is a mistake, though, isn't it? Are "blue" states net contributors to federal tax if "red" citizens move out?
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- deleted 4y ago
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somehnacct3757 4y ago
I've seen this meme a lot, with wildly different calculated values and outcomes. (But always confirming the political biases of the bubble it was shared in, of course.) I'd really like to see a rigorous calculation and explanation behind the decisions, because I think this could be a useful stat for comparing states' fiscal success relative to one another. For example should the calculations include federal spend on federal employees? It's not really a reflection of the state's actions if the federal government happens to have a big agency headquarters there inflating the 'federal spend'.
mrguyorama 4y ago
I don't expect this kind of thing to happen. The very ideology of democrat's platform is : be generous and kind and help people. The Democrats in office can barely agree on even basic moves to get public approval, good luck ever getting them to agree on directly harming millions of people just because they don't agree with how they vote.
Turing_Machine 4y ago
> Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington, claiming they're tired of paying for the red states It will be even more interesting if the red states then stop sending the blue ones things like food, water, and energy. It may turn out that those things are more important than simulated pieces of green paper.

RichardCNormos 4y ago

It will be interesting if the red states stop selling food to the blue ones. There are plenty of buyers overseas.

tayo42 4y ago
Pretty sure most of our human food comes from places like Mexico. Red state America mostly just grows stuff like corn. Idk if alot of that corn is even edible for people iirc
- nebula8804 4y ago
  Its commercial corn for feedlots and "bio-fuels": ie converting 1 gallon of diesel into 0.9 gallons of bio-fuels.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Nope. America's a strong net exporter of food.
  - tayo42 4y ago
    that's not really how this works. just because a country export doesn't mean the country doesn't rely on imports see stuff like this https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/dining/fruit-vegetables-imports.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/dining/fruit-vegetables-i...
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      https://www.wlj.net/top_headlines/americans-consume-mostly-u-s--made-food-produce/article_a76f95f0-5857-11e8-8922-47f84163101f.html https://www.wlj.net/top_headlines/americans-consume-mostly-u... Or if you want the latest raw data from the USDA Economic Research Service, you can grab it here: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/international-markets-u-s-trade/u-s-agricultural-trade/u-s-agricultural-trade-at-a-glance/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/international-markets-u-s-tr... It's true, many fresh produce foods are imported, but the majority (~80%) of food consumed in the US is domestically produced / grown.
      - tayo42 4y ago
        I think we're talking about different things. That 80% includes things like candy, beer, cereal. America isn't going to collapse if that disappeared.
        spywaregorilla 4y ago
        I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. 80% reduction in food would be catastrophic and its puzzling to imagine otherwise. Not to mention the fact that a lot of that same food supply is exported to food insecure countries. It disappearing isn't on the table though. Candy is not a large part of the American diet so it's not really that meaningful to call out its inclusion. American agriculture is going to be more important than ever in light of the coming (present?) gas crisis. I'm not well informed enough to make a comment on Mexico but I would wager they're likely in a pretty good spot too.
        tayo42 4y ago
        The post I responded to was about red states being petty and stop selling food to blue states. That's like real food like produce. Not total food and beverage. But sure looking at something expensive like candy About 37billion in sales https://www.foodbeverageinsider.com/market-trends-analysis/us-chocolate-candy-sales-rise-again https://www.foodbeverageinsider.com/market-trends-analysis/u... Compared to 70ish billion of produce https://theproducenews.com/headlines/produce-department-sales-top-71-billion-see-continued-growth https://theproducenews.com/headlines/produce-department-sale... That seems significant for all good and beverage sales. Nevermind alcohol, which I'm pretty sure was included in that first 80% number. Look at a supermarket, how much of that is real food. I think my local one has 3-4 aisles of snacks and candy
jleyank 4y ago
The red states might grow it, but who owns the farms? I'm willing to bet there's not a lot of family farms left, and the conglomerates will go wherever the cash is best. Same with oil, as it's fungible.
- bediger4000 4y ago
  There are hardly any family farms left. That way of life got swept away in the economic changes of the 1950s - 1990s.
nebula8804 4y ago
Would probably improve the diets and health of the union since all they produce is government subsidized corn garbage anyway.
luma 4y ago
And the blue states have plenty of money to buy food from wherever they like. The minority of America picking this fight are going to have a difficult time dealing with the results if they ever get their way. The country doesn’t need this line of thinking and it benefits nobody but Putin.
bmismyname 4y ago
California is the biggest producer of food in the US, by a huge margin (about 50% more than Iowa, the #2 producer). https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17844 https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17844 I would like to see how it breaks down by red vs. blue, and I suspect there might be a slight edge for team red, but California in particular fills an important niche of supplying most of the non-grain foods, and can produce food year round. However California is probably going to lose its status as #1 as aridification continues.
- silisili 4y ago
  This argument doesn't hold much water when the people in California making the food are overwhelmingly red themselves. What happens if they leave, or decide to make their own little state? We shouldn't be bragging about punishments of blue vs red at all, because should such a thing occur everyone is going to have a much worse quality of life, blue or red.
  - nostrademons 4y ago
    The land makes the food, the people just tend the land. If the people move out new people move in to fill that vacuum. That's exactly what happens now with migrant labor.
    - dmitrygr 4y ago
      Do you also think that factories make widgets, and the people working there just press buttons? Text editors make software, and programmers just mash on keyboards? There’s a lot more to farming than tending to the land. Crops don’t magically grow. Your simplistic view of it is both insulting to those who farm and dangerous.
      - nostrademons 4y ago
        Once labor gets commoditized, yes. The factories do make the the widgets, with the people working there pushing buttons. That's why there's all this hand-wringing about immigration, cheap foreign competition, unions dissolving, worker bargaining power, and capitalist abuses. If the workers made the products they'd just find new factories and this wouldn't be an issue. Programmers for now do make the software, in that there's a dramatic difference in the ability of a good programmer vs. a mediocre programmer to actually complete a project, and they're compensated accordingly. That'll likely change in a decade or so, though. Then the software will be largely already written, and it'll be maintained by management structures with commodity programmers slotting into roles in the org chart. It's already happening for many roles. It's a perspective shift from "here's a laborer making a product" to "here's a role for how the product is made, and any number of different laborers could slot into it", and it happens when there are enough people with the skills to make the product that any one of them can slot into it.
danaris 4y ago
Hi, blue state New York here. I have no idea what actual percentage of the state's land is farms, but...I'm certainly surrounded by them. Many miles of farmland; plenty, at least, to supply the people around here, if used efficiently. The idea that "blue states are urban" and "red states are rural" is just plain wrong. There are cities in red states (though some red states don't have any large cities in them), and there's plenty of rural land in blue states. Welcome to nuance.
bfgoodrich 4y ago

itsoktocry 4y ago

>Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington Thinking of it state by state is a mistake, though, isn't it? Are "blue" states net contributors to federal tax if "red" citizens move out?

deleted 4y ago

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deleted 4y ago
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somehnacct3757 4y ago

I've seen this meme a lot, with wildly different calculated values and outcomes. (But always confirming the political biases of the bubble it was shared in, of course.) I'd really like to see a rigorous calculation and explanation behind the decisions, because I think this could be a useful stat for comparing states' fiscal success relative to one another. For example should the calculations include federal spend on federal employees? It's not really a reflection of the state's actions if the federal government happens to have a big agency headquarters there inflating the 'federal spend'.

mrguyorama 4y ago

I don't expect this kind of thing to happen. The very ideology of democrat's platform is : be generous and kind and help people. The Democrats in office can barely agree on even basic moves to get public approval, good luck ever getting them to agree on directly harming millions of people just because they don't agree with how they vote.

Turing_Machine 4y ago

> Will be interesting if the blue states ever decide to stop forwarding income taxes to Washington, claiming they're tired of paying for the red states It will be even more interesting if the red states then stop sending the blue ones things like food, water, and energy. It may turn out that those things are more important than simulated pieces of green paper.