5 ms·

>Should kids be taught that the world is not dangerous to make kids less likely to be tolerant? If my kids fear that anyone who is not in their group is out to

>Should kids be taught that the world is not dangerous to make kids less likely to be tolerant? If my kids fear that anyone who is not in their group is out to harm them,then they will become less tolerant of anyone not in their group. Dunno why you put it on the head like that?

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Because the question is a really simple one. Is intolerance automatically a bad thing? There is a reason stereotypes exist ( statistically, they tend to pan out ). They do not operate in a vacuum. They are effectively a useful heuristic that just happens to sometimes misfire. The issues tend to start when that heuristic is institutionalized, but as a day to day operator it tends to work. Second part is more personal, would I be willing to sacrifice my kids safety in the name of tolerance? I know how I answer that question. I am all but certain most people answer it the same way. To put it simply, as values come: kids > tolerance.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  > Is intolerance automatically a bad thing? Teaching intolerance to children? Yeah, that's a bad thing.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Intolerance.. of what? Intolerance of their brother playing with matches under his bed? Intolerance of being bullied? Intolerance itself is amoral. Intolerance of bad things is good. Intolerance of good things is bad. Part of raising a kid is teaching them which things should be tolerated and which things not to tolerate. Absolute tolerance isn't virtuous, it makes you a wet noodle with no spine.
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Intolerance of people different than them. I thought that was what was being discussed.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
        It is? Do you tolerate child killers, dog rapists, tax evaders, cheaters, habitual liars, nose pickers, people, who can't park in their space.. I am being purposefully specific, because I am sure everyone has a line. And if we agree that there is indeed a line, what people is it ok to be intolerant of?
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  Every racist has used this same logic to explain why they won't let their kids play with the black neighbors. The problem you're running into is mistaking statistics for personal actions. you can get tetanus from a rusty nail, the solution is more care around rusty nails, not to refuse to work around them. Or disallow your children from working around them. In fact, disallowing that harms them in the long run as they never learn how to work around them with more care. At the end of day being alive implies risk, teaching your children how to manage that risk is a part of your job as a parent.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    << Every racist has used this same logic to explain why they won't let their kids play with the black neighbors. I do want to point out that the moment you call everything racist, nothing is racist. Same applies to most labels used to attempt to shut down discussions based on merits/data/statistics rather than emotions and rallying flag keywords. In the old country, my parents did not let me play with other white kids for reasons other than race. Were their intolerance so different, because it did touch the color of the skin? It is not a bait. It is a real question. << At the end of day being alive implies risk, teaching your children how to manage that risk is a part of your job as a parent. We are in agreement. << Or disallow your children from working around them. In fact, disallowing that harms them in the long run as they never learn how to work around them with more care. Depends on the kid temperament really. I was somewhat obedient. My sister was not. You did not really answer the question about intolerance. Is racism tolerable? Should you not "not to refuse to work around them" based on your own argument?
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      > I do want to point out that the moment you call everything racist, nothing is racist. What was actually said is that if your criteria applies to racist actions there's a problem with your criteria, in the same way that if your behavior results in someones death, there's a problem with your behavior. statistically speaking, most murders are perpetrated by black men. So statistically speaking, your garden variety racist is right to distrust their black neighbor. ^ that the above is true speaks clearly to the flaw in your thinking.
- mithr 4y ago
  > [stereotypes] are effectively a useful heuristic that just happens to sometimes misfire They don't happen to sometimes misfire. They are a very poor predictor of the behavior of individuals within the group you're stereotyping. And in your day-to-day life, you're pretty much always dealing with individuals rather than an entire class of people. This is significantly complicated when considering that stereotypes weren't created in a vacuum, either. Sometimes they are the result of some statistical phenomenon (which still doesn't mean they are good predictors of individual behavior), but often they are the result of historical prejudice. One easy example is that there are lots of stereotypes about Jewish people, many of which involve money or some sort of secret societal control. Those are categorically false, and have been tied to age-old antisemitic sentiments and humans' natural fear of groups of "others". Some are also self-fulfilling. If 50 years ago a bunch of the population believed that a certain class of people were more likely to commit crimes, and as a result more of those people tended to be arrested, then looking at those statistics today in isolation seems to "prove" the point that this segment is more dangerous. Whereas in reality the reason the statistics are this way is largely because of the prejudiced belief.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    I disagree vis-a-vis stereotypes. I personally subscribe to the idea that in a society constructs do tend to serve a specific evolutionary purpose. That is true for god, society, or stereotypes. They exist in ways that may obscure their purpose, which is ( was? ) tribe survival. <<This is significantly complicated when considering that stereotypes weren't created in a vacuum, either. Absolutely correct, they exist as a result of observed facts and carried down as memes throughout society at large. You can question their accuracy, but there is a reason they exist and thrive. << which still doesn't mean they are good predictors of individual behavior They are good enough for an individual predictions, which is all an individual is concerned with. The issue starts when it is being used more broadly. << If 50 years ago a bunch of the population believed that a certain class of people were more likely to commit crimes, and as a result more of those people tended to be arrested, then looking at those statistics today in isolation seems to "prove" the point that this segment is more dangerous. Ok. Lets say we forget history for a moment. There is indeed an argument to be made that data may not be.. accurate ( but that also opens the question of.. is that accuracy zero ?). What about current statistics of shooting incidents in Chicago? Are those also biased, because they happen to show similar pattern ( I think we can agree shooting people is a bad thing and likely dangerous and those involved likely belong in prison -- self defense and similar being excluded )?

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

Because the question is a really simple one. Is intolerance automatically a bad thing? There is a reason stereotypes exist ( statistically, they tend to pan out ). They do not operate in a vacuum. They are effectively a useful heuristic that just happens to sometimes misfire. The issues tend to start when that heuristic is institutionalized, but as a day to day operator it tends to work. Second part is more personal, would I be willing to sacrifice my kids safety in the name of tolerance? I know how I answer that question. I am all but certain most people answer it the same way. To put it simply, as values come: kids > tolerance.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
> Is intolerance automatically a bad thing? Teaching intolerance to children? Yeah, that's a bad thing.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Intolerance.. of what? Intolerance of their brother playing with matches under his bed? Intolerance of being bullied? Intolerance itself is amoral. Intolerance of bad things is good. Intolerance of good things is bad. Part of raising a kid is teaching them which things should be tolerated and which things not to tolerate. Absolute tolerance isn't virtuous, it makes you a wet noodle with no spine.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Intolerance of people different than them. I thought that was what was being discussed.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      It is? Do you tolerate child killers, dog rapists, tax evaders, cheaters, habitual liars, nose pickers, people, who can't park in their space.. I am being purposefully specific, because I am sure everyone has a line. And if we agree that there is indeed a line, what people is it ok to be intolerant of?
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
Every racist has used this same logic to explain why they won't let their kids play with the black neighbors. The problem you're running into is mistaking statistics for personal actions. you can get tetanus from a rusty nail, the solution is more care around rusty nails, not to refuse to work around them. Or disallow your children from working around them. In fact, disallowing that harms them in the long run as they never learn how to work around them with more care. At the end of day being alive implies risk, teaching your children how to manage that risk is a part of your job as a parent.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  << Every racist has used this same logic to explain why they won't let their kids play with the black neighbors. I do want to point out that the moment you call everything racist, nothing is racist. Same applies to most labels used to attempt to shut down discussions based on merits/data/statistics rather than emotions and rallying flag keywords. In the old country, my parents did not let me play with other white kids for reasons other than race. Were their intolerance so different, because it did touch the color of the skin? It is not a bait. It is a real question. << At the end of day being alive implies risk, teaching your children how to manage that risk is a part of your job as a parent. We are in agreement. << Or disallow your children from working around them. In fact, disallowing that harms them in the long run as they never learn how to work around them with more care. Depends on the kid temperament really. I was somewhat obedient. My sister was not. You did not really answer the question about intolerance. Is racism tolerable? Should you not "not to refuse to work around them" based on your own argument?
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    > I do want to point out that the moment you call everything racist, nothing is racist. What was actually said is that if your criteria applies to racist actions there's a problem with your criteria, in the same way that if your behavior results in someones death, there's a problem with your behavior. statistically speaking, most murders are perpetrated by black men. So statistically speaking, your garden variety racist is right to distrust their black neighbor. ^ that the above is true speaks clearly to the flaw in your thinking.
mithr 4y ago
> [stereotypes] are effectively a useful heuristic that just happens to sometimes misfire They don't happen to sometimes misfire. They are a very poor predictor of the behavior of individuals within the group you're stereotyping. And in your day-to-day life, you're pretty much always dealing with individuals rather than an entire class of people. This is significantly complicated when considering that stereotypes weren't created in a vacuum, either. Sometimes they are the result of some statistical phenomenon (which still doesn't mean they are good predictors of individual behavior), but often they are the result of historical prejudice. One easy example is that there are lots of stereotypes about Jewish people, many of which involve money or some sort of secret societal control. Those are categorically false, and have been tied to age-old antisemitic sentiments and humans' natural fear of groups of "others". Some are also self-fulfilling. If 50 years ago a bunch of the population believed that a certain class of people were more likely to commit crimes, and as a result more of those people tended to be arrested, then looking at those statistics today in isolation seems to "prove" the point that this segment is more dangerous. Whereas in reality the reason the statistics are this way is largely because of the prejudiced belief.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  I disagree vis-a-vis stereotypes. I personally subscribe to the idea that in a society constructs do tend to serve a specific evolutionary purpose. That is true for god, society, or stereotypes. They exist in ways that may obscure their purpose, which is ( was? ) tribe survival. <<This is significantly complicated when considering that stereotypes weren't created in a vacuum, either. Absolutely correct, they exist as a result of observed facts and carried down as memes throughout society at large. You can question their accuracy, but there is a reason they exist and thrive. << which still doesn't mean they are good predictors of individual behavior They are good enough for an individual predictions, which is all an individual is concerned with. The issue starts when it is being used more broadly. << If 50 years ago a bunch of the population believed that a certain class of people were more likely to commit crimes, and as a result more of those people tended to be arrested, then looking at those statistics today in isolation seems to "prove" the point that this segment is more dangerous. Ok. Lets say we forget history for a moment. There is indeed an argument to be made that data may not be.. accurate ( but that also opens the question of.. is that accuracy zero ?). What about current statistics of shooting incidents in Chicago? Are those also biased, because they happen to show similar pattern ( I think we can agree shooting people is a bad thing and likely dangerous and those involved likely belong in prison -- self defense and similar being excluded )?