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5 years resident here (as a Brexit refugee). Central city locations in Lisbon and Porto have exploded in price, but this is due to AirBnB rather than rich expa

5 years resident here (as a Brexit refugee). Central city locations in Lisbon and Porto have exploded in price, but this is due to AirBnB rather than rich expats. Portugal's tourism industry has boomed, which has put money in a lot of people's pockets, but has distorted local economies somewhat. Better management is required, for example cracking down on AirBnB and NOT building that new cruise liner terminal. Unfortunately the upper middle class idyll (alluded to in the article) of living a dilapidated (but in a cool way) apartment ten paces from your favourite coffee shop, while doing a socially respectable play job is now no more viable here than in SF, London or Berlin. Indeed, my own favourite 'coffee shop' got turned into a chain tequila bar. Outside the hot centres, things aren't as bad. Public transport (at least in the AML - Lisbon Metropolitan Area) is excellent by any standard, and decent apartments are available for sensible prices well within one hour public transport commute of the downtown. Compare with London, where people are fighting over each rental. > family factor weighs a lot here Yes, and this is a problem, given that Portugal only became democratic 48 years ago and has a large amount of cultural baggage from quite frankly medieval times. Also, the implication of this statement is that family doesn't count elsewhere - and in case you missed it it was spelled out a few lines later, which should give you an idea of the residual naivety and insularity of (old) Portuguese culture. Agency - the idea that you can do or think something independently, and then take responsibility for it - is somewhat lacking too. But! There is much that is very good about Portugal and the Portuguese people, I feel that here it is ok to be kind to each other. Furthermore, there are good changes, new opportunities are arising (perhaps in a very small part to some of the more productive visa holders), and I see a great future for Portugal - even if many Portuguese often don't.

andrepd 4y ago
(Calling yourself a "refugee" as a rich immigrant is a bit off-puting, imho) Why do you say that the rise in housing prices has been due to AirBnB but not to rich immigrants? It seems a bit odd. Both can outbid the average native and just push prices high. Many rich immigrants also buy up loads of property for speculative/investment purposes, not just to live in. >has a large amount of cultural baggage from quite frankly medieval times I wonder what exactly you mean by this.
- sanedigital 4y ago
  We lived in Lisbon for a year. While lots of city centers have had housing converted to Short-term Rentals, Lisbon is at an entirely different level. There, entire apartment buildings (6-10 units) are converted to Airbnbs/hotels/hostels. There are streets in the more touristy areas where every other building is for STRs (buildings that were clearly built as long-term housing).
- iostream25 4y ago
  not the op. agree that op is not refugee fleeing war on inflatable boat. I distilled "lack of agency" as: not rewarding initiative, people afraid to take initiative. the portuguese boss does not like the employee to take initiative, and the employee will not do so. copying existing British designs is "safer" socially speaking, than making new designs. source: I'm portuguese, I'm a weirdo and people always try to conform me to a box.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  There is such a thing as a rich refugee. People in the mining business, when a country goes supercritical (more than Brexit, like Cuba) their bright career prospects decouple from their prospects politically, so confiscation is on the table even if "they were cool" because eg the Cuban Revolution needed money and now everyone is meant to have the same amount of sustenance anyway. New definition of what's fair. They operate under more recent definition, I would say every single person has a different definition of fairness. Incompatible definitions of fairness. They have in practice a much higher metabolism requiring more pure ingredients, from better sources, it's medically harmful to cut them off like instantly. Although at the same time they contribute to both the problem and solution, like it depends. Turns out very rough to adapt to on short notice, flat-out can't in many cases, and for sure you can't send your kid to any random Cuban school with kids on the other side of a former class divide, from one day to the next? Like how are you going to tell that kid? Just gotta be "really cool", in the "they was cool", sense, and some kids make it and others can't, wretched childhood. Although at the same time Fidel Castro, biographically, grew up among blacks because his father didn't recognize him fully, not even a second son, so he knew it could be done and there was the will that it happen. And people will price discriminate against that kid forever, never accept he's no longer rich unless he's filthy in rags...that's a rough sketch of it. Misery all of a sudden, and metabolically difficult, like it's not just 2000 calories here's some water with fluoride for your teeth boom done. It wouldn't take your body 24 hours a day if it took a single sentence to summarize like I just did. Water alone, Americans aren't supposed to drink Chilean water or they get diarrhea like automatically, it could be anything, selenium plus manganese in the water table, natural salts (as opposed to NaF) that are systematically removed in America. It's along the same lines as toothpastes in Chile having over 6x the sodium flouride of American toothpastes. Like literally you couldn't buy those same toothpastes in America without a dentist's prescription, I innocently told them 5000 ppm pharmacist looked at me said "No that you need a prescription" like it was opioid that kind of reaction. I was actually prescribed toothpaste weaker than the only strength toothpaste Walmart sells in Chile, it's all 1650, like eating the color white, kids hate it because it's good to hate it because it's bad for you. Counterproductive, makes people become busted and scream at their kids, everyone in the family going to the Walmart to buy cookies. Makes you crave. Gives you ADD, I actually--it turns out--don't have any symptoms of ADD--and I generally have literally every single one and nothing else--when I cut fluoride out of my life. Drank from a well. I actually paid attention, as a verb, for once in my life. Like a colorblind guy seeing blue for the first time. So weird, now I know what people are talking about. So if you don't want F poisoning, which is exactly what the fuck that's all about for political reasons, there it is again, didn't want this country to turn into another Cuba, Socialist Sandwich as Nixon put it, you flourinate really hard. Breakfast lunch and dinner, inescapable, it's a super expensive subsidy but it's not for your teeth, it's for your brain, it is incapacitating so you don't eg sue or protest. If you know the way around here in Santiago, you'll figure out you have to pay triple at a homeopathic store, the pharmacies don't carry any toothpaste that doesn't F you 1650 ppm. Either you go way out of your way or go without toothpaste, which is a thing for instance in Cuba. Everyone has a hard time adapting to that. So that's an example of adapting, and it can take decades. And it's expensive to adapt, hard-learned lessons like flunking courses at Stanford in my case because I was consenting to absurd doses of fluorine, not knowing the harm. Not one ADD doctor brought it up, like they have them on a gag order, it's the most obvious shit nobody had ADD in the 50's and then you F'ed up the water and now everyone has to see a shrink, 2 + 2 equals what? So the wealth and political status decouple, and they benefited when times were good, and then...well they get a new citizenship somewhere else and adapt to that, not Cuba but maybe 60's Brazil, learn the language which is work, learn the laws under which they must now live, and relearn the balance of power what the traps are what the actual opportunities are...and be a survivor, there are people left behind that couldn't get out, not savvy enough, bad airport game missed the last flight, and yeah they have money but they get charged much more for everything. Like the parent poster. Price discrimination evens things out in the end. That's what you replied to. Dude a raft is not what determines refugee status, it doesn't have to be a giant pornographic Hollywoodesque stereotype of all the tropes of taking refuge--which is what the word means--to qualify in my book. Being hated is enough.
spaniard89277 4y ago
Rich expats too, who are you trying to fool. Can rich expats outbid the average Portuguese? If the answer is yes, then there's not much discussion to have.
taylorius 4y ago
"Indeed, my own favourite 'coffee shop' got turned into a chain tequila bar." The horror! ;-)
paganel 4y ago
> but this is due to AirBnB Others have said it before, but mass tourism is the new Dutch disease [1]. Pure tourist cities like Venice are already too affected by it to have a chance of getting back to a normal economic and social life, but there are other cities that are still trying to fight it, like Barcelona. Not sure if there are any political forces in Lisbon or Porto ready to take the same stance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Yes exactly this. And like other resource extraction industries, tourism does not provide many high skilled jobs and is not supportive of a growing and successful middle class, favouring wealth holders over wealth creators.
epolanski 4y ago
> one hour public transport commute of the downtown. Who doesn't want to spend 15% of his woke day commuting.
unmole 4y ago
> Brexit refugee Hard cringe.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  EDIT: shitter news won't let me post a reply so I will just delete my comment
  - unmole 4y ago
    > Why is that cringe? Because words have meanings: refugee /rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/ noun a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster. Claiming to be a Brexit refugee when there are millions of actual refugees in Europe is cringey to say the least. > Supposedly the economy is going to be downgraded from a developed economy to an "emerging market economy". Anyone claiming that has no right to be taken seriously.
    - somewhereoutth 4y ago
      Well I'm watching (from afar) the place I was born and grew up in, the place I call home, burning to the ground. All the good things we stood for - tolerance, pragmatism, good humour, reputation, confidence, common decency, are being lost. All the time the news gets worse - strikes everywhere, shortages, NHS collapsing, people will have to choose between heating and eating this winter. Portugal seems like a well run paradise in comparison. It is a man made disaster, and I left to escape it.
  - ssizn 4y ago
    >Many thousands are going to freeze to death in their homes this Christmas. Unlike in Europe. Oh wait.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      Every time this topic is touched I learn something new about the standard of comfort that western Europe enjoys. I've been told that in Germany the gas-saving measures will make people turn down their temperature during winter to 20-21°C from the, supposedly, standard 24-25°C. But that can't be right, can it? When I lived in Italy we had below 20°C during winter because the wooden windows from the 70s not replaced since then due to various, not strictly financial reasons, didn't provide much insulation. Over here in eastern Europe it was always "18°C and put a sweater on".
joaogante 4y ago
Portuguese living in Lisbon here -- I deeply agree with the parent comment. Prior to covid, it was very common to hear stories where families were to put all their savings into new mortgages to buy more AirBnBs. I also see a bright future in Portugal. Many young people that moved out after university want to come back, after making a killing in their career. They might earn less with the move, but you don't need a six digit salary to live very comfortably here.

andrepd 4y ago

(Calling yourself a "refugee" as a rich immigrant is a bit off-puting, imho) Why do you say that the rise in housing prices has been due to AirBnB but not to rich immigrants? It seems a bit odd. Both can outbid the average native and just push prices high. Many rich immigrants also buy up loads of property for speculative/investment purposes, not just to live in. >has a large amount of cultural baggage from quite frankly medieval times I wonder what exactly you mean by this.

sanedigital 4y ago
We lived in Lisbon for a year. While lots of city centers have had housing converted to Short-term Rentals, Lisbon is at an entirely different level. There, entire apartment buildings (6-10 units) are converted to Airbnbs/hotels/hostels. There are streets in the more touristy areas where every other building is for STRs (buildings that were clearly built as long-term housing).
iostream25 4y ago
not the op. agree that op is not refugee fleeing war on inflatable boat. I distilled "lack of agency" as: not rewarding initiative, people afraid to take initiative. the portuguese boss does not like the employee to take initiative, and the employee will not do so. copying existing British designs is "safer" socially speaking, than making new designs. source: I'm portuguese, I'm a weirdo and people always try to conform me to a box.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
There is such a thing as a rich refugee. People in the mining business, when a country goes supercritical (more than Brexit, like Cuba) their bright career prospects decouple from their prospects politically, so confiscation is on the table even if "they were cool" because eg the Cuban Revolution needed money and now everyone is meant to have the same amount of sustenance anyway. New definition of what's fair. They operate under more recent definition, I would say every single person has a different definition of fairness. Incompatible definitions of fairness. They have in practice a much higher metabolism requiring more pure ingredients, from better sources, it's medically harmful to cut them off like instantly. Although at the same time they contribute to both the problem and solution, like it depends. Turns out very rough to adapt to on short notice, flat-out can't in many cases, and for sure you can't send your kid to any random Cuban school with kids on the other side of a former class divide, from one day to the next? Like how are you going to tell that kid? Just gotta be "really cool", in the "they was cool", sense, and some kids make it and others can't, wretched childhood. Although at the same time Fidel Castro, biographically, grew up among blacks because his father didn't recognize him fully, not even a second son, so he knew it could be done and there was the will that it happen. And people will price discriminate against that kid forever, never accept he's no longer rich unless he's filthy in rags...that's a rough sketch of it. Misery all of a sudden, and metabolically difficult, like it's not just 2000 calories here's some water with fluoride for your teeth boom done. It wouldn't take your body 24 hours a day if it took a single sentence to summarize like I just did. Water alone, Americans aren't supposed to drink Chilean water or they get diarrhea like automatically, it could be anything, selenium plus manganese in the water table, natural salts (as opposed to NaF) that are systematically removed in America. It's along the same lines as toothpastes in Chile having over 6x the sodium flouride of American toothpastes. Like literally you couldn't buy those same toothpastes in America without a dentist's prescription, I innocently told them 5000 ppm pharmacist looked at me said "No that you need a prescription" like it was opioid that kind of reaction. I was actually prescribed toothpaste weaker than the only strength toothpaste Walmart sells in Chile, it's all 1650, like eating the color white, kids hate it because it's good to hate it because it's bad for you. Counterproductive, makes people become busted and scream at their kids, everyone in the family going to the Walmart to buy cookies. Makes you crave. Gives you ADD, I actually--it turns out--don't have any symptoms of ADD--and I generally have literally every single one and nothing else--when I cut fluoride out of my life. Drank from a well. I actually paid attention, as a verb, for once in my life. Like a colorblind guy seeing blue for the first time. So weird, now I know what people are talking about. So if you don't want F poisoning, which is exactly what the fuck that's all about for political reasons, there it is again, didn't want this country to turn into another Cuba, Socialist Sandwich as Nixon put it, you flourinate really hard. Breakfast lunch and dinner, inescapable, it's a super expensive subsidy but it's not for your teeth, it's for your brain, it is incapacitating so you don't eg sue or protest. If you know the way around here in Santiago, you'll figure out you have to pay triple at a homeopathic store, the pharmacies don't carry any toothpaste that doesn't F you 1650 ppm. Either you go way out of your way or go without toothpaste, which is a thing for instance in Cuba. Everyone has a hard time adapting to that. So that's an example of adapting, and it can take decades. And it's expensive to adapt, hard-learned lessons like flunking courses at Stanford in my case because I was consenting to absurd doses of fluorine, not knowing the harm. Not one ADD doctor brought it up, like they have them on a gag order, it's the most obvious shit nobody had ADD in the 50's and then you F'ed up the water and now everyone has to see a shrink, 2 + 2 equals what? So the wealth and political status decouple, and they benefited when times were good, and then...well they get a new citizenship somewhere else and adapt to that, not Cuba but maybe 60's Brazil, learn the language which is work, learn the laws under which they must now live, and relearn the balance of power what the traps are what the actual opportunities are...and be a survivor, there are people left behind that couldn't get out, not savvy enough, bad airport game missed the last flight, and yeah they have money but they get charged much more for everything. Like the parent poster. Price discrimination evens things out in the end. That's what you replied to. Dude a raft is not what determines refugee status, it doesn't have to be a giant pornographic Hollywoodesque stereotype of all the tropes of taking refuge--which is what the word means--to qualify in my book. Being hated is enough.

spaniard89277 4y ago

Rich expats too, who are you trying to fool. Can rich expats outbid the average Portuguese? If the answer is yes, then there's not much discussion to have.

taylorius 4y ago

"Indeed, my own favourite 'coffee shop' got turned into a chain tequila bar." The horror! ;-)

paganel 4y ago

> but this is due to AirBnB Others have said it before, but mass tourism is the new Dutch disease [1]. Pure tourist cities like Venice are already too affected by it to have a chance of getting back to a normal economic and social life, but there are other cities that are still trying to fight it, like Barcelona. Not sure if there are any political forces in Lisbon or Porto ready to take the same stance. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

somewhereoutth 4y ago
Yes exactly this. And like other resource extraction industries, tourism does not provide many high skilled jobs and is not supportive of a growing and successful middle class, favouring wealth holders over wealth creators.

epolanski 4y ago

> one hour public transport commute of the downtown. Who doesn't want to spend 15% of his woke day commuting.

unmole 4y ago

> Brexit refugee Hard cringe.

bowsamic 4y ago
EDIT: shitter news won't let me post a reply so I will just delete my comment
- unmole 4y ago
  > Why is that cringe? Because words have meanings: refugee /rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/ noun a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster. Claiming to be a Brexit refugee when there are millions of actual refugees in Europe is cringey to say the least. > Supposedly the economy is going to be downgraded from a developed economy to an "emerging market economy". Anyone claiming that has no right to be taken seriously.
  - somewhereoutth 4y ago
    Well I'm watching (from afar) the place I was born and grew up in, the place I call home, burning to the ground. All the good things we stood for - tolerance, pragmatism, good humour, reputation, confidence, common decency, are being lost. All the time the news gets worse - strikes everywhere, shortages, NHS collapsing, people will have to choose between heating and eating this winter. Portugal seems like a well run paradise in comparison. It is a man made disaster, and I left to escape it.
- ssizn 4y ago
  >Many thousands are going to freeze to death in their homes this Christmas. Unlike in Europe. Oh wait.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Every time this topic is touched I learn something new about the standard of comfort that western Europe enjoys. I've been told that in Germany the gas-saving measures will make people turn down their temperature during winter to 20-21°C from the, supposedly, standard 24-25°C. But that can't be right, can it? When I lived in Italy we had below 20°C during winter because the wooden windows from the 70s not replaced since then due to various, not strictly financial reasons, didn't provide much insulation. Over here in eastern Europe it was always "18°C and put a sweater on".

joaogante 4y ago

Portuguese living in Lisbon here -- I deeply agree with the parent comment. Prior to covid, it was very common to hear stories where families were to put all their savings into new mortgages to buy more AirBnBs. I also see a bright future in Portugal. Many young people that moved out after university want to come back, after making a killing in their career. They might earn less with the move, but you don't need a six digit salary to live very comfortably here.