4 ms·

Are those really making a dent? What percentage of Lisbons apartments stay empty? What percentage is used for short duration rental? I would think only a small

by TekMol 4y ago

Are those really making a dent? What percentage of Lisbons apartments stay empty? What percentage is used for short duration rental? I would think only a small one-digit percentage?

jonathanstrange 4y ago
There are tons (like, really many) of empty, closed rotting buildings in Lisbon. My assumption is the owners are waiting for prices to increase or simply demanding unreasonably inflated prices until they find a buyer. I'd like to know the reasons for it. Anyway, whole blocks are empty. Heck, there is a large empty building directly next to the German embassy (and, ironically, part of the German embassy is also abandoned and empty even though it belongs to it). There is also a substantial number of new luxury apartment buildings in my area with apartments that appear to be empty. Whether they are owned yet or to be sold is hard to determine but you can see when nobody lives there.
- stainforth 4y ago
  Exactly. There should be a tax on vacancy. We've made the 1) mistake of turning a very special need like shelter into a commodity or security vehicle, and 2) this commodity the owner can "hold-out" on in that makes it violate the principles of economics that we all supposedly agreed upon from above that the market is the most fair and best solution for people.
  - ginja 4y ago
    We already tax vacant property up to 12 times the regular tax when located in high demand areas[1] which includes all of Lisbon municipality. It's definitely had some effect as you see a lot less vacant property, but it unfortunately doesn't fix everything. [1]: https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/decreto-lei/67-2019-122349221 https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/decreto-lei/67-2019-122349221
- jhugo 4y ago
  Hard to understand why anyone thinks gentrification or foreign buyers/renters are the problem if this is the case. Put people in the houses you already have, and build some more if needed, and you will likely find the price drops. But perhaps the people with decision-making power are hoping the price continues to rise.
- quonn 4y ago
  Even more building were rotting before Portugal liberalized the market, because nobody would or could pay for renovations. The truth is that real estate is merely a reflection of wealth. Some of that wealth is earned by hard work that others are not willing to put in while other wealth is just inherited and some people work hard and smart and still stay relatively poor. Therefore we shouldn‘t judge so easily based on what someone has and go back to asking how it came about.
nicolas_t 4y ago
I have an apartment that sits empty, I'd love to rent it, I even have a license to rent it for holiday rental but it took 2 years and an half for the proper permits to be filled for me to renovate the apartment, once that went through, covid happened and it was not possible to find anyone to do the work, eventually the constructors I hired started doing the work but stopped in the middle claiming they can't find employees... So I now have an apartment that's been empty and useless for 5 years, it did triple in value in the meantime but it's such a huge waste
- jhugo 4y ago
  You can hear a version of this story from apartment owners in many European cities, meanwhile the newspapers attribute out-of-control housing costs to a laundry list of more sensational causes...
- tmnvix 4y ago
  Why not sell it?
  - nicolas_t 4y ago
    Because I really like the location and view, I really wanted to renovate it, rent it for part of the year to tourists and stay in it for part of the year.

by TekMol 4y ago

Are those really making a dent? What percentage of Lisbons apartments stay empty? What percentage is used for short duration rental? I would think only a small one-digit percentage?

jonathanstrange 4y ago

There are tons (like, really many) of empty, closed rotting buildings in Lisbon. My assumption is the owners are waiting for prices to increase or simply demanding unreasonably inflated prices until they find a buyer. I'd like to know the reasons for it. Anyway, whole blocks are empty. Heck, there is a large empty building directly next to the German embassy (and, ironically, part of the German embassy is also abandoned and empty even though it belongs to it). There is also a substantial number of new luxury apartment buildings in my area with apartments that appear to be empty. Whether they are owned yet or to be sold is hard to determine but you can see when nobody lives there.

stainforth 4y ago
Exactly. There should be a tax on vacancy. We've made the 1) mistake of turning a very special need like shelter into a commodity or security vehicle, and 2) this commodity the owner can "hold-out" on in that makes it violate the principles of economics that we all supposedly agreed upon from above that the market is the most fair and best solution for people.
- ginja 4y ago
  We already tax vacant property up to 12 times the regular tax when located in high demand areas[1] which includes all of Lisbon municipality. It's definitely had some effect as you see a lot less vacant property, but it unfortunately doesn't fix everything. [1]: https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/decreto-lei/67-2019-122349221 https://dre.pt/dre/detalhe/decreto-lei/67-2019-122349221
jhugo 4y ago
Hard to understand why anyone thinks gentrification or foreign buyers/renters are the problem if this is the case. Put people in the houses you already have, and build some more if needed, and you will likely find the price drops. But perhaps the people with decision-making power are hoping the price continues to rise.
quonn 4y ago
Even more building were rotting before Portugal liberalized the market, because nobody would or could pay for renovations. The truth is that real estate is merely a reflection of wealth. Some of that wealth is earned by hard work that others are not willing to put in while other wealth is just inherited and some people work hard and smart and still stay relatively poor. Therefore we shouldn‘t judge so easily based on what someone has and go back to asking how it came about.

nicolas_t 4y ago

I have an apartment that sits empty, I'd love to rent it, I even have a license to rent it for holiday rental but it took 2 years and an half for the proper permits to be filled for me to renovate the apartment, once that went through, covid happened and it was not possible to find anyone to do the work, eventually the constructors I hired started doing the work but stopped in the middle claiming they can't find employees... So I now have an apartment that's been empty and useless for 5 years, it did triple in value in the meantime but it's such a huge waste

jhugo 4y ago
You can hear a version of this story from apartment owners in many European cities, meanwhile the newspapers attribute out-of-control housing costs to a laundry list of more sensational causes...
tmnvix 4y ago
Why not sell it?
- nicolas_t 4y ago
  Because I really like the location and view, I really wanted to renovate it, rent it for part of the year to tourists and stay in it for part of the year.