6 ms·

I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single -

by TekMol 4y ago

I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the size. Then a big family could live here nicely. But no way. No landlord in Germany rents to a freelancer who enjoys a "I'm mainly slacking off for a while" lifestyle.

consp 4y ago
There are other ways to be stuck, I'm in subsidized housing which I would like to give to the less fortunate but buying is impossible and leaving would mean half the space and four times the rent making me have less remaining per month than the less fortunate in my current appartment.
- substation13 4y ago
  Indeed. Price caps turn an expensive market into a lottery. Hardly an improvement, in my view.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Large amounts of public-built housing (and I mean large, in the order of at least ~20% of the market) have a track record of working amazingly well to lower the cost of housing to acceptable levels and to give everyone a chance at homeownership.
aprdm 4y ago
Similar in Vancouver. If you've been renting for 7+ years, you won't move even if the place doesn't fit you anymore. You would be paying close to double.
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Heavily taxing houses that stay empty and limiting short duration rental could be quite effective. The issue is somewhat the same in Paris. It’s very hard to afford living there because non local use properties as an investment and prefer them staying empty than risking them degraded and people who want to rent make more money on Airbnb. It’s fine if you want the city to become Disneyland but very depressing otherwise.
- andrepd 4y ago
  This issue of speculation on empty properties would be, if not solved, then at least immensely alleviated with a Georgist LVT (Land Value Tax), a tax on properties equal to the rent for the undeveloped piece of land. It's easy to implement, the market exists to price that amount, and provides a direct incentive to either put the property to productive use or get rid of it. Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity.
  - solveit 4y ago
    > Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity. I quite agree, and I am therefore very suspicious that this is actually happening in significant volume! I have never seen convincing evidence that this happens, and it, at least superficially, makes no sense as a money-making scheme (Worried about degradation? That just means you should get insurance.) In general, it doesn't make financial sense to keep capital idle, and claims of such should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if the messaging is politically charged as "rich foreigners are screwing the common man over to make money". I agree that an LVT would be the solution if this were actually a problem. And that an LVT solves many other problems unrelated to evil foreign billionaires.
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      Indeed. I'm most familiar with the US market so can't speak for European countries which may be different, but here's a graph of estimated vacant units held off-market against total housing units in the US: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=TiNw https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=TiNw
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - abeppu 4y ago
        Is this a high or a low number? On the one hand, <5% of units vacant sounds small. On the other hand, this is about 12x as many as there are estimated homeless in the US. https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/2020-point-in-time-count/ https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/2020-point-in-time-co...
rjzzleep 4y ago
I don't think Germany is a great example at all cause they would rather rent out to a good German girl who's dad has money than to a foreign professional who has a longterm work contract in Germany. I agree that the annoying lifestyle expats are a problem, but bringing up something completely unrelated with a whole host of its own issues is a really weird way to make a point.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  It's a combination of things really. Lack of building when the population is still growing. Encouraging single lifestyle, both by kicking out kids early and shacking up later. Cases where sitting on an empty property is risk free. Infrastructure increases taking valuable space. Giving early birds great deals compared to today, making them sit on huge housing for a pittance and making moving out a terrible deal. And politically, there simply is no immediate incentive to solve things when the current population of homeowners does not contain enough people to vote in favor of those that don't own homes.
- mmarq 4y ago
  Everywhere you prefer to rent to a local than to a foreigner, it’s not a German thing.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    There are a great many countries where property owners would rather rent to a foreigner, due to foreigners having on average higher spending power.
  - rjzzleep 4y ago
    Had absolutely no problem with it in the UK, US, or Taiwan. Most places you can just pay in advance to make up for lack of credit history. In Germany it makes you suspicious. So no, it's not everywhere. Given how many expats there are across the globe and given that there is 190+ countries on the planet, I'm not sure that Germany is actually in the majority here.
tumetab1 4y ago
> I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. That's one of the reasons why portuguese renting market is so bad. There were rent control policies for like 40 years. It has been phased out but the market still has the signs of its damages. There also other contributing policies and the policies change almost every two years. I'm one that could invest in the market, to bring more houses to be rent, but I can not risk 150 000 euros buying a house to rent (middle income market) and then having problems evicting with a non-paying renter, being forbidden to increase the rent due a new law or god help me if I need to use the court system to ask for renter damages.
- stainforth 4y ago
  So either we preference your 150000 euros (and of course interest and margin on top) or someone having a roof over their head, running water, and even the ability to stay in the same are and building community instead of moving each year due to capital seeking max gains.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    But he said he want to do it to help a family, not his pockets. /s
    - seb1204 4y ago
      I read she wants security for her investment property.
  - jbm 4y ago
    This is an egregious misreading of the parent comment. Someone in a position of economic vulnerability isn't going to invest in housing to rent out if there is a non-insignificant chance of damage to the property. Moreover, this uncertainty has the perverse outcome of pushing the potential small landlord to use his funds to invest in something like a real estate investment fund - which will result in less local control over housing.
djbebs 4y ago
Youll be happy to learn that every rental property in portugal is under rent control! Some have been unable to raise rents since the 1910s!

by TekMol 4y ago

consp 4y ago

There are other ways to be stuck, I'm in subsidized housing which I would like to give to the less fortunate but buying is impossible and leaving would mean half the space and four times the rent making me have less remaining per month than the less fortunate in my current appartment.

substation13 4y ago
Indeed. Price caps turn an expensive market into a lottery. Hardly an improvement, in my view.
andrepd 4y ago
Large amounts of public-built housing (and I mean large, in the order of at least ~20% of the market) have a track record of working amazingly well to lower the cost of housing to acceptable levels and to give everyone a chance at homeownership.

aprdm 4y ago

Similar in Vancouver. If you've been renting for 7+ years, you won't move even if the place doesn't fit you anymore. You would be paying close to double.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

Heavily taxing houses that stay empty and limiting short duration rental could be quite effective. The issue is somewhat the same in Paris. It’s very hard to afford living there because non local use properties as an investment and prefer them staying empty than risking them degraded and people who want to rent make more money on Airbnb. It’s fine if you want the city to become Disneyland but very depressing otherwise.

andrepd 4y ago
This issue of speculation on empty properties would be, if not solved, then at least immensely alleviated with a Georgist LVT (Land Value Tax), a tax on properties equal to the rent for the undeveloped piece of land. It's easy to implement, the market exists to price that amount, and provides a direct incentive to either put the property to productive use or get rid of it. Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity.
- solveit 4y ago
  > Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity. I quite agree, and I am therefore very suspicious that this is actually happening in significant volume! I have never seen convincing evidence that this happens, and it, at least superficially, makes no sense as a money-making scheme (Worried about degradation? That just means you should get insurance.) In general, it doesn't make financial sense to keep capital idle, and claims of such should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if the messaging is politically charged as "rich foreigners are screwing the common man over to make money". I agree that an LVT would be the solution if this were actually a problem. And that an LVT solves many other problems unrelated to evil foreign billionaires.
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    Indeed. I'm most familiar with the US market so can't speak for European countries which may be different, but here's a graph of estimated vacant units held off-market against total housing units in the US: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=TiNw https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=TiNw
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - abeppu 4y ago
      Is this a high or a low number? On the one hand, <5% of units vacant sounds small. On the other hand, this is about 12x as many as there are estimated homeless in the US. https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/2020-point-in-time-count/ https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/2020-point-in-time-co...

rjzzleep 4y ago

I don't think Germany is a great example at all cause they would rather rent out to a good German girl who's dad has money than to a foreign professional who has a longterm work contract in Germany. I agree that the annoying lifestyle expats are a problem, but bringing up something completely unrelated with a whole host of its own issues is a really weird way to make a point.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
It's a combination of things really. Lack of building when the population is still growing. Encouraging single lifestyle, both by kicking out kids early and shacking up later. Cases where sitting on an empty property is risk free. Infrastructure increases taking valuable space. Giving early birds great deals compared to today, making them sit on huge housing for a pittance and making moving out a terrible deal. And politically, there simply is no immediate incentive to solve things when the current population of homeowners does not contain enough people to vote in favor of those that don't own homes.
mmarq 4y ago
Everywhere you prefer to rent to a local than to a foreigner, it’s not a German thing.
- jhugo 4y ago
  There are a great many countries where property owners would rather rent to a foreigner, due to foreigners having on average higher spending power.
- rjzzleep 4y ago
  Had absolutely no problem with it in the UK, US, or Taiwan. Most places you can just pay in advance to make up for lack of credit history. In Germany it makes you suspicious. So no, it's not everywhere. Given how many expats there are across the globe and given that there is 190+ countries on the planet, I'm not sure that Germany is actually in the majority here.

tumetab1 4y ago

> I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. That's one of the reasons why portuguese renting market is so bad. There were rent control policies for like 40 years. It has been phased out but the market still has the signs of its damages. There also other contributing policies and the policies change almost every two years. I'm one that could invest in the market, to bring more houses to be rent, but I can not risk 150 000 euros buying a house to rent (middle income market) and then having problems evicting with a non-paying renter, being forbidden to increase the rent due a new law or god help me if I need to use the court system to ask for renter damages.

stainforth 4y ago
So either we preference your 150000 euros (and of course interest and margin on top) or someone having a roof over their head, running water, and even the ability to stay in the same are and building community instead of moving each year due to capital seeking max gains.
- epolanski 4y ago
  But he said he want to do it to help a family, not his pockets. /s
  - seb1204 4y ago
    I read she wants security for her investment property.
- jbm 4y ago
  This is an egregious misreading of the parent comment. Someone in a position of economic vulnerability isn't going to invest in housing to rent out if there is a non-insignificant chance of damage to the property. Moreover, this uncertainty has the perverse outcome of pushing the potential small landlord to use his funds to invest in something like a real estate investment fund - which will result in less local control over housing.

djbebs 4y ago

Youll be happy to learn that every rental property in portugal is under rent control! Some have been unable to raise rents since the 1910s!