6 ms·

The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development, even with WASM. Unless something changes both with mobile ope

The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development, even with WASM. Unless something changes both with mobile operating systems and their respective app stores, PWAs are a failure. I do agree, however, that PWAs have adequate performance. Even back 9 years ago, performance on mobile could be acceptable, but you just couldn't overload the frontend with countless UI modules.

__ryan__ 4y ago
The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development. Never? Why not?
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Because the only two platforms that matter have multiple incentives to keep it that way, and little, if any incentive to make them more useful. Even if we lived in a world where new features didn't have to be continually gimped and restricted in the name of tracking prevention and general security, there will never be any significant motion on PWAs so long as the Apple/Google duopoly exists.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Except Google's is one of the main PWA backers, https://web.dev/ https://web.dev/ belongs to Google. Here, how to officialy create packages for the Android app store, https://developer.chrome.com/docs/android/trusted-web-activity/ https://developer.chrome.com/docs/android/trusted-web-activi...
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  Because you require deep integration with the OS for some tasks, and the browsers will always lag behind that. How do you create a menu to select a wifi network from a PWA right now? Or a new driver for you graphic card? Or an equivalent to LittleSnitch? You can't. The only way it would be possible would be that browser, os vendors and standard commitees manage to formalize an API for every single OS behavior accross all major platforms, and do so every time something new appear on them. This would require a level of resources and cooperation that simply doesn't exist. We already have a hard time cooperating of thing that accessing BT and USB which have been there forever.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    > How do you create a menu to select a wifi network from a PWA right now? Or a new driver for you graphic card? Or an equivalent to LittleSnitch? You also cannot do those examples on native apps, they are usually only allowed by the OS itself. Anything CRUD related can be easily done on modern browsers, games are one of the few exceptions as WebGL/WebGPU will never be a match to what Metal/DX12/Vulkan are capable of. Still, plenty of fun can be had with Playstation 3 like graphics.
    - eddieroger 4y ago
      > You also cannot do those examples on native apps, they are usually only allowed by the OS itself. Well, that's not true. Windows: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/nativewifi/native-wifi-api-sample https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/nativewifi/na... Apple OSes: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicemanagement/wifi https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicemanagement/w... Android: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/net/wifi/WifiManager https://developer.android.com/reference/android/net/wifi/Wif... And LittleSnitch is specifically an app made by a non-OS third-party that does exactly the things OP mentioned. One of the older app dev shops. https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html
      - vetinari 4y ago
        The GP probably meant mobile OS-es, not desktop ones. It would be impossible to make GPU driver or Little Snitch-like app for either iOS or Android, if you are not the OS vendor.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        I was referring to mobile OSes, and if you bothered to read the Android documentation, it works with intents.
    - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
      > Anything CRUD Not even true, if you want advanced features. Do you want sync over the local network? Nope, WebRTC cannot use Bonjour or Avahi to detect other peers without accessing the internet. Do you need your CRUD app to be able to accept parameters different configuration file granularity and from env vars? Forget about it, you don't have access to most of the FS, nor env vars. Do you need it to query a specialized database yet work offline (e.g: sig)? Shim over localStorage won't cut it. Do you need smart search, or completion? Better it not work with machine learning, cause as soon the network is down, you are on your own. So you can do a CRUD in the sense of what microsoft access used to allow you to do. That's useful, but it's a far cry from what native can do.
- unixbane 4y ago
  because web browsers are a gimmicky product that still have bugs like in firefox where you download something at it says 5MB/s for the next 2 days but it stays at 10/1000mb progress
k__ 4y ago
That might be true, but as long as your specific app doesn't need the missing features, you're probably better off with a PWA. Not having to meddle with and pay 30% to app stores alone is a huge win.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  That is until your app suddenly needs to do something not allowed for PWAs. > Not having to meddle with and pay 30% to app stores alone is a huge win. Why would Apple or The Google do that? There's nothing stopping them from charging developers for listing their PWAs on the stores. The only reason I can think of is if they think PWAs are sufficiently nerfed such that they don't need to do code review, which further backs up my original point.
  - k__ 4y ago
    "That is until your app suddenly needs to do something not allowed for PWAs." If that's the case, put it into Cordova or something. Just lazily pay the price when you actually getting something for it.
paxys 4y ago
> The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development, even with WASM. They will have as much parity as the platform manufacturer wants them to. If more people and developers adopt PWA then Apple/Google really have no option but to loosen their control over their ecosystems. Maybe then we'll finally have a third competitor in the race.
- depressedpanda 4y ago
  I'm no fan of Google, but let's be honest here, they are hardly the ones holding PWAs back.
  - paxys 4y ago
    Well they still don't allow PWAs in the Play Store without bundling them as full apps and going through the regular publishing/update/approval process, which kinda defeats the point.
    - depressedpanda 4y ago
      Seems kinda fire and forget to me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32679340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32679340
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      Which is weird as hell because treating PWAs as apps (from a mobile UI perspective) could be built in to the OS itself. Maybe there's some reason The Google won't do this, but OSes already treats the web as a real thing (integrated web views and such), so PWAs would seem like a next step to that.
      - randfur 4y ago
        It is built into Android. Go to twitter.com, log in and then accept the install prompt that appears. It integrates seamlessly with link sharing OS UI and jump lists.
  - 4y ago

__ryan__ 4y ago

The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development. Never? Why not?

Karunamon 4y ago
Because the only two platforms that matter have multiple incentives to keep it that way, and little, if any incentive to make them more useful. Even if we lived in a world where new features didn't have to be continually gimped and restricted in the name of tracking prevention and general security, there will never be any significant motion on PWAs so long as the Apple/Google duopoly exists.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Except Google's is one of the main PWA backers, https://web.dev/ https://web.dev/ belongs to Google. Here, how to officialy create packages for the Android app store, https://developer.chrome.com/docs/android/trusted-web-activity/ https://developer.chrome.com/docs/android/trusted-web-activi...
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
Because you require deep integration with the OS for some tasks, and the browsers will always lag behind that. How do you create a menu to select a wifi network from a PWA right now? Or a new driver for you graphic card? Or an equivalent to LittleSnitch? You can't. The only way it would be possible would be that browser, os vendors and standard commitees manage to formalize an API for every single OS behavior accross all major platforms, and do so every time something new appear on them. This would require a level of resources and cooperation that simply doesn't exist. We already have a hard time cooperating of thing that accessing BT and USB which have been there forever.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  > How do you create a menu to select a wifi network from a PWA right now? Or a new driver for you graphic card? Or an equivalent to LittleSnitch? You also cannot do those examples on native apps, they are usually only allowed by the OS itself. Anything CRUD related can be easily done on modern browsers, games are one of the few exceptions as WebGL/WebGPU will never be a match to what Metal/DX12/Vulkan are capable of. Still, plenty of fun can be had with Playstation 3 like graphics.
  - eddieroger 4y ago
    > You also cannot do those examples on native apps, they are usually only allowed by the OS itself. Well, that's not true. Windows: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/nativewifi/native-wifi-api-sample https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/nativewifi/na... Apple OSes: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicemanagement/wifi https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicemanagement/w... Android: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/net/wifi/WifiManager https://developer.android.com/reference/android/net/wifi/Wif... And LittleSnitch is specifically an app made by a non-OS third-party that does exactly the things OP mentioned. One of the older app dev shops. https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html
    - vetinari 4y ago
      The GP probably meant mobile OS-es, not desktop ones. It would be impossible to make GPU driver or Little Snitch-like app for either iOS or Android, if you are not the OS vendor.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      I was referring to mobile OSes, and if you bothered to read the Android documentation, it works with intents.
  - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
    > Anything CRUD Not even true, if you want advanced features. Do you want sync over the local network? Nope, WebRTC cannot use Bonjour or Avahi to detect other peers without accessing the internet. Do you need your CRUD app to be able to accept parameters different configuration file granularity and from env vars? Forget about it, you don't have access to most of the FS, nor env vars. Do you need it to query a specialized database yet work offline (e.g: sig)? Shim over localStorage won't cut it. Do you need smart search, or completion? Better it not work with machine learning, cause as soon the network is down, you are on your own. So you can do a CRUD in the sense of what microsoft access used to allow you to do. That's useful, but it's a far cry from what native can do.
unixbane 4y ago
because web browsers are a gimmicky product that still have bugs like in firefox where you download something at it says 5MB/s for the next 2 days but it stays at 10/1000mb progress

k__ 4y ago

That might be true, but as long as your specific app doesn't need the missing features, you're probably better off with a PWA. Not having to meddle with and pay 30% to app stores alone is a huge win.

ravenstine 4y ago
That is until your app suddenly needs to do something not allowed for PWAs. > Not having to meddle with and pay 30% to app stores alone is a huge win. Why would Apple or The Google do that? There's nothing stopping them from charging developers for listing their PWAs on the stores. The only reason I can think of is if they think PWAs are sufficiently nerfed such that they don't need to do code review, which further backs up my original point.
- k__ 4y ago
  "That is until your app suddenly needs to do something not allowed for PWAs." If that's the case, put it into Cordova or something. Just lazily pay the price when you actually getting something for it.

paxys 4y ago

> The problem with PWAs is they will never gain parity with the functionality of native development, even with WASM. They will have as much parity as the platform manufacturer wants them to. If more people and developers adopt PWA then Apple/Google really have no option but to loosen their control over their ecosystems. Maybe then we'll finally have a third competitor in the race.

depressedpanda 4y ago
I'm no fan of Google, but let's be honest here, they are hardly the ones holding PWAs back.
- paxys 4y ago
  Well they still don't allow PWAs in the Play Store without bundling them as full apps and going through the regular publishing/update/approval process, which kinda defeats the point.
  - depressedpanda 4y ago
    Seems kinda fire and forget to me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32679340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32679340
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Which is weird as hell because treating PWAs as apps (from a mobile UI perspective) could be built in to the OS itself. Maybe there's some reason The Google won't do this, but OSes already treats the web as a real thing (integrated web views and such), so PWAs would seem like a next step to that.
    - randfur 4y ago
      It is built into Android. Go to twitter.com, log in and then accept the install prompt that appears. It integrates seamlessly with link sharing OS UI and jump lists.
- 4y ago