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> razing a city to the ground or wiping out most of the population of entire towns. In Fallujah the US destroyed over half the homes, displaced 100,000s of peo

> razing a city to the ground or wiping out most of the population of entire towns. In Fallujah the US destroyed over half the homes, displaced 100,000s of people and admitted to using white phosphorus. You are misremembering.

dundarious 4y ago
Also, pretty sure the counter to the ISIS takeover of northern Iraq involved the same kind of broad artillery fire on apartments, etc., as we’ve seen in Ukraine. Here is a study into deaths during the ISIS takeover and occupation, and the counter. There was relatively little conflict when ISIS took over, so the low death rates there are unsurprising but somewhat irrelevant. The death rate in the “liberation” is significant. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29763433/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29763433/
- simonh 4y ago
  That is true, but those towns are mostly far smaller in comparison to a city like Kyiv, with known enemy forces in or within very close proximity. If combatants are in current occupation of an area, it's a legitimate target. Longer range bombings not associated with active combat were generally at targeted buildings or infrastructure. This is not reasonably comparable to continuous mass bombardment of civilian areas with no relevant military objective.
  - dundarious 4y ago
    Mosul has a population of >1.5M, I think there are comparable and even many smaller Ukrainian cities and towns that have suffered in a similar way, to much deserved condemnation. Russia's war of aggression is illegal, but its tactics are broadly similar to those of other conventional (non-guerilla) armies. To me, the point is that war tactics are always murderous to civilians, even for "good" wars -- meaning it had better be an actually justifiable war like WW2, rather than an invented threat like WMDs with the US in Iraq, or a sphere of influence war against NATO with Russia in Ukraine.
    - simonh 4y ago
      >but its tactics are broadly similar to those of other conventional (non-guerilla) armies You can always find terrible individual incidents, but the systematic rape, mass murder, looting and civilian bombardment by Russia is in no way comparable to the operations of any western army. Take the murders in Fallujah after those Blackwater guys were killed, which someone raised elsewhere on this thread. It's an appalling incident that the US should be ashamed of, prosecutions were levelled against a whole bunch of the perpetrators but it looks like they mostly got off. The Maywand district murders guys in Afghanistan were properly banged to rights though and there have been plenty of other cases of US soldiers being properly and seriously held accountable for their actions. I don't have exact numbers, but as far as I can tell about 40 US troops faced prosecution for war crimes or abuses as a result of the Iraqi invasion. I'm not saying that's enough, but it's something. Things like that happened in almost every single town taken by the Russians. Not isolated occurrences, but systematic slaughter of men women and children. Whole families, streets at a time in some cases. Tanks driving around blasting civilian cars and buildings, then driving off piled up with the looted contents from a row of houses. The scale of it is completely out of comparison, and I'm willing to bet not a single one of those Russians will face prosecution or censure of any kind, whatsoever by the Russian authorities. In fact they're giving some of the troops accused of war crimes medals.
      - dundarious 4y ago
        We were talking about conventional military tactics (e.g., artillery) on civilian areas, so a topic entirely separate from the "terrible individual incidents" you mention: on the conventional tactics front, I disagree that there is a significant difference. When a conventional military wants to wrest military control of an area from another smaller conventional military (one that for good reason has some guerilla elements as well), they all use similar tactics. The end result is always a bloodbath (or mass murder). And Russia is absolutely committing other cruelties of war on top of the conventional war. I was also excluding that from the discussion, because it wasn't part of the article or the thread thus far. More people die from the conventional stuff too.
        4y ago
  - kingkawn 4y ago
    That’s a mighty small straw you’re splitting
    - simonh 4y ago
      The scale of Russian bombardment on Ukrainian civilian areas isn't small.
      - kingkawn 4y ago
        wasn’t the contention, but nice attempt to change the subject. Your argument was instead that American mass destruction of a city is somehow meaningful different from others, which is demonstrably untrue across so many conflicts it makes the head spin.
        simonh 4y ago
        Sure the US military has mass bombarded and carpet bombed cities before, but in the last few decades they’ve given that up. It’s too expensive, and it just doesn’t work. Modern smart targeted munitions enable much more precise attacks. Mistakes still get made for sure, but much less frequently. The Russians pretend to do the same, but their tech and targeting intel isn’t good enough, and they clearly just don’t care enough to really try anyway.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
The second battle of Fallujah where the US, British, and Iraqis fought against insurgents? The insurgents that fought from civilian homes and used civilians as shields? How many civilians were killed? I'm seeing estimates of only 500-800.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  Isn’t that because beforehand the city was surrounded and the population displaced. Then a lot of people who stayed behind were automatically counted as insurgents irregardless of why they stayed. And you also ignore the incredible destruction of civilian property during the course of the battle.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    If you were a commander on the ground what would you have done to better achieve the objective?
    - meheleventyone 4y ago
      Which is an extremely weak defense. The excuse any commander can use for raising cities, just gotta claim it was the only way to do it and hey presto.
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
        I'm waiting to hear your alternative and superior strategy.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

dundarious 4y ago

Also, pretty sure the counter to the ISIS takeover of northern Iraq involved the same kind of broad artillery fire on apartments, etc., as we’ve seen in Ukraine. Here is a study into deaths during the ISIS takeover and occupation, and the counter. There was relatively little conflict when ISIS took over, so the low death rates there are unsurprising but somewhat irrelevant. The death rate in the “liberation” is significant. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29763433/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29763433/

simonh 4y ago
That is true, but those towns are mostly far smaller in comparison to a city like Kyiv, with known enemy forces in or within very close proximity. If combatants are in current occupation of an area, it's a legitimate target. Longer range bombings not associated with active combat were generally at targeted buildings or infrastructure. This is not reasonably comparable to continuous mass bombardment of civilian areas with no relevant military objective.
- dundarious 4y ago
  Mosul has a population of >1.5M, I think there are comparable and even many smaller Ukrainian cities and towns that have suffered in a similar way, to much deserved condemnation. Russia's war of aggression is illegal, but its tactics are broadly similar to those of other conventional (non-guerilla) armies. To me, the point is that war tactics are always murderous to civilians, even for "good" wars -- meaning it had better be an actually justifiable war like WW2, rather than an invented threat like WMDs with the US in Iraq, or a sphere of influence war against NATO with Russia in Ukraine.
  - simonh 4y ago
    >but its tactics are broadly similar to those of other conventional (non-guerilla) armies You can always find terrible individual incidents, but the systematic rape, mass murder, looting and civilian bombardment by Russia is in no way comparable to the operations of any western army. Take the murders in Fallujah after those Blackwater guys were killed, which someone raised elsewhere on this thread. It's an appalling incident that the US should be ashamed of, prosecutions were levelled against a whole bunch of the perpetrators but it looks like they mostly got off. The Maywand district murders guys in Afghanistan were properly banged to rights though and there have been plenty of other cases of US soldiers being properly and seriously held accountable for their actions. I don't have exact numbers, but as far as I can tell about 40 US troops faced prosecution for war crimes or abuses as a result of the Iraqi invasion. I'm not saying that's enough, but it's something. Things like that happened in almost every single town taken by the Russians. Not isolated occurrences, but systematic slaughter of men women and children. Whole families, streets at a time in some cases. Tanks driving around blasting civilian cars and buildings, then driving off piled up with the looted contents from a row of houses. The scale of it is completely out of comparison, and I'm willing to bet not a single one of those Russians will face prosecution or censure of any kind, whatsoever by the Russian authorities. In fact they're giving some of the troops accused of war crimes medals.
    - dundarious 4y ago
      We were talking about conventional military tactics (e.g., artillery) on civilian areas, so a topic entirely separate from the "terrible individual incidents" you mention: on the conventional tactics front, I disagree that there is a significant difference. When a conventional military wants to wrest military control of an area from another smaller conventional military (one that for good reason has some guerilla elements as well), they all use similar tactics. The end result is always a bloodbath (or mass murder). And Russia is absolutely committing other cruelties of war on top of the conventional war. I was also excluding that from the discussion, because it wasn't part of the article or the thread thus far. More people die from the conventional stuff too.
      - 4y ago
- kingkawn 4y ago
  That’s a mighty small straw you’re splitting
  - simonh 4y ago
    The scale of Russian bombardment on Ukrainian civilian areas isn't small.
    - kingkawn 4y ago
      wasn’t the contention, but nice attempt to change the subject. Your argument was instead that American mass destruction of a city is somehow meaningful different from others, which is demonstrably untrue across so many conflicts it makes the head spin.
      - simonh 4y ago
        Sure the US military has mass bombarded and carpet bombed cities before, but in the last few decades they’ve given that up. It’s too expensive, and it just doesn’t work. Modern smart targeted munitions enable much more precise attacks. Mistakes still get made for sure, but much less frequently. The Russians pretend to do the same, but their tech and targeting intel isn’t good enough, and they clearly just don’t care enough to really try anyway.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

The second battle of Fallujah where the US, British, and Iraqis fought against insurgents? The insurgents that fought from civilian homes and used civilians as shields? How many civilians were killed? I'm seeing estimates of only 500-800.

meheleventyone 4y ago
Isn’t that because beforehand the city was surrounded and the population displaced. Then a lot of people who stayed behind were automatically counted as insurgents irregardless of why they stayed. And you also ignore the incredible destruction of civilian property during the course of the battle.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  If you were a commander on the ground what would you have done to better achieve the objective?
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    Which is an extremely weak defense. The excuse any commander can use for raising cities, just gotta claim it was the only way to do it and hey presto.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
      I'm waiting to hear your alternative and superior strategy.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]