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> This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't

> This isnt true at all. I just gave numerous examples that I've seen personally. Centrists who don't care one way or the other about Zionism certainly aren't the ones beating up Jews on the streets of London when Israel does something bad.

pydry 4y ago
The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  > The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...
  - pydry 4y ago
    >Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. Israel hates these people the most. It's not hard to see why. Random people who attack Jews arent a threat - they get condemned and sent to prison quickly. BDS, on the other hand, has a history of successfully taking down apartheid states. >That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. It really is curious. Every person I've observed who has tried to make this point has staunchly avoided condemning the publicly stated highly racist views of the President of Israel after I raised them. It's not a correlation. It's literally 100%, even among people who are supposedly egalitarian and educated. This does detract from your observation, Im afraid. There is a very clear anti-zionism correlation to committed anti-racism, and an even higher correlation between being antiracist and those accused of antisemitism who deny it. One or two nazis holding up a palestinian flag (not somethingk they tend to do a lot) doesnt change that.
    - hackerlight 4y ago
      > staunchly avoided condemning the publicly stated highly racist views of the President of Israel after I raised them. This is irrelevant to the question being discussed which is whether anti-Zionism is correlated with anti-semitism. However, I did look up his statements now and yes it appears he is indeed some kind of racist. That's still besides the point. > very clear anti-zionism correlation to committed anti-racism Yes, that correlation also exists. That's not at all mutually exclusive with a correlation between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. As I described above, anti-Zionism is a wide tent with some racist genocidal crackpot conspiracy theorist ethnoreligious nationalists mixed together with true egalitarian anti-racist leftists and liberals. > One or two nazis holding up a palestinian flag (not somethingk they tend to do a lot) doesnt change that. Dishonestly euphemistic and you know it.
      - pydry 4y ago
        >This is irrelevant to the question being discussed It's completely relevant. The point being that being anti zionist is a necessary precondition of being consistently antiracist. I will condemn clear and open anti semitism. I have no problem with that. I cant in good faith condemn anti semitism and not condemn Isaac Herzog's comments. Anti semitism is racism. Isaac made some very clear and very obvious racist remarks as the head of the zionist state too. To be consistently antiracist I have to condemn those too, as well as the sheer overwhelming levels of racism inherent in the state he leads. It is also a natural consequence of holding these views that you will, inevitably be accused of antisemitism. The correlation on that is nearly 100% as far as I can see - it happened to me, it happened to all of my friends, it happened to everyone involved in BDS. Consistent antiracism guarantees that you will falsely be accused of antisemitism...by racists. >As I described above, anti-Zionism is a wide tent with some racist genocidal crackpot conspiracy theorist And pro zionism is a wide tent with a self declared racist at the very top whose racism is endorsed, whether implicitly or explicitly by damn near everybody in the tent. I keep asking pro zionists and zionist apologists to prove themselves exceptions to this rule and they consistently refuse - thereby implicitly placing themselves in the "pro racism" group, i suppose. >Dishonestly euphemistic and you know it. No, not really. I tend to view the president of a cause to be a bit more representative of it than I do a few crackpots who hold up a flag. I similarly dont view Baruch Goldstein as representative of all zionists. Unlike most other people who conflate antisemitism and antizionism, I dont just have a preferred flavor of racism.
- nailer 4y ago
  I'm not sure how familiar with the UK you are. The left recently chose as a leader a man who claimed he was friends with Hamas and Hezbollah. The people who claim 'anti-zionism isn't antisemitism' are his voters. Edit reply due to rate limit: Corbyn also laid a wreath for one of the terrorists, presumably also in the pursuit of peace. Oddly Corbyn also advocated for the IRA and claims that was about peace too, but the people that negotiated Good Friday state he didn’t have anything to do with the NI peace process either.
  - pydry 4y ago
    It's called diplomacy. He was engaged in peace negotiations when he called those people friends (he has since said that he probably shouldnt have said it). It clearly wasnt racism that motivated him to say "friends" it was obviously a desire for peace. Most of his more intelligent detractors understood the context but were avowedly pro war - for them that actually made it worse. Isaac Herzog's abhorrent views had no such excuse, he doubled down on them and yet British centrists demonstrate pretty much unconditional support for him. A contingent from the UK Labour party even visited him to apologize in person for the other guy's "antisemitism". In the process of apologizing for somebody who wasnt a racist, they were sucking up to somebody who was. They werent looking for peace when they did that though, only approval.
    - nailer 4y ago
      Was rate limited at the time, but edit-replied above - ICYMI: Corbyn also laid a wreath for one of the terrorists, presumably also in the pursuit of peace. Oddly Corbyn also advocated for the IRA and claims that was about peace too, but the people that negotiated Good Friday state he didn’t have anything to do with the NI peace process either. Adding to that: > A contingent from the UK Labour party even visited him to apologize in person for the other guy's "antisemitism". Excellent. That said, it's not just one other guy - Corbyn's not the only person in the far left. > Isaac Herzog's abhorrent views The worst I've seen so far is someone saying Herzog thinks Palestinians fly planes into buildings, which is demonstrably false (in a video he discusses 'terrorists' doing that) and someone else saying he doesn't want his daughter to marry a black man - not wanting your children to marry outside your race is a fairly common view worldwide although rarely said in public in the UK. Oddly Labour is very keen on conservative views when it comes to some races but not others. If there's something big about Herzog we haven't seen in this thread please spill it here.

pydry 4y ago

The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it. Not shy about his views - like most of your other examples no doubt. There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. On the other hand, ive yet to hear a single person who purposefully conflates the two condemn Isaac Herzog - the president of israel as a racist for what he definitely said. Literally zero. You would be the first if you were to do it in any such argument ive had. The closest I got was "his views are unfortunate". I generally interpret this silence as a signal that his views on racial supremacy, his state and its institutions are thoroughly and comprehensively endorsed.

hackerlight 4y ago
> The guy who beat up a Jew in London screamed "fuck Jews" while he did it > There is close to no overlap between these people and the people who take pains to explain for the 15th time to a likely racist skeptic that they dont hate jews it's the state of israel they have a problem with. Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. You see this correlation manifest in alt-right neo-Nazi communities, who both hate Israel and hate Jews, go and read Stormfront or 4chan. And you see it manifest among Arab-Muslim nationalists. There isn't a group that hates Jews and don't also hate Israel. Regarding the guy who was screaming "fuck Jews", he was probably motivated to action by what Israel was doing a day before. It didn't happen in a vacuum where his anti-semitism can be cleanly separated from his dislike of Israel. The two are related. It's the same underlying psychology as people who are racist against Muslims because of Al Qaeda or ISIS, or people who are racist against Russians because of Putin, and so on. https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/culture/sorry-truth...
- pydry 4y ago
  >Yes, those specific anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites. These are the types of anti-Zionists that you'll find in tech circles who are educated, egalitarian minded people that are cognitively capable of separating the crimes of a state and the ethnic group inside it. Israel hates these people the most. It's not hard to see why. Random people who attack Jews arent a threat - they get condemned and sent to prison quickly. BDS, on the other hand, has a history of successfully taking down apartheid states. >That doesn't detract from the observation that there's an intersection and correlation between people who are anti-Zionist and people who are anti-semitic. It really is curious. Every person I've observed who has tried to make this point has staunchly avoided condemning the publicly stated highly racist views of the President of Israel after I raised them. It's not a correlation. It's literally 100%, even among people who are supposedly egalitarian and educated. This does detract from your observation, Im afraid. There is a very clear anti-zionism correlation to committed anti-racism, and an even higher correlation between being antiracist and those accused of antisemitism who deny it. One or two nazis holding up a palestinian flag (not somethingk they tend to do a lot) doesnt change that.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    > staunchly avoided condemning the publicly stated highly racist views of the President of Israel after I raised them. This is irrelevant to the question being discussed which is whether anti-Zionism is correlated with anti-semitism. However, I did look up his statements now and yes it appears he is indeed some kind of racist. That's still besides the point. > very clear anti-zionism correlation to committed anti-racism Yes, that correlation also exists. That's not at all mutually exclusive with a correlation between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. As I described above, anti-Zionism is a wide tent with some racist genocidal crackpot conspiracy theorist ethnoreligious nationalists mixed together with true egalitarian anti-racist leftists and liberals. > One or two nazis holding up a palestinian flag (not somethingk they tend to do a lot) doesnt change that. Dishonestly euphemistic and you know it.
    - pydry 4y ago
      >This is irrelevant to the question being discussed It's completely relevant. The point being that being anti zionist is a necessary precondition of being consistently antiracist. I will condemn clear and open anti semitism. I have no problem with that. I cant in good faith condemn anti semitism and not condemn Isaac Herzog's comments. Anti semitism is racism. Isaac made some very clear and very obvious racist remarks as the head of the zionist state too. To be consistently antiracist I have to condemn those too, as well as the sheer overwhelming levels of racism inherent in the state he leads. It is also a natural consequence of holding these views that you will, inevitably be accused of antisemitism. The correlation on that is nearly 100% as far as I can see - it happened to me, it happened to all of my friends, it happened to everyone involved in BDS. Consistent antiracism guarantees that you will falsely be accused of antisemitism...by racists. >As I described above, anti-Zionism is a wide tent with some racist genocidal crackpot conspiracy theorist And pro zionism is a wide tent with a self declared racist at the very top whose racism is endorsed, whether implicitly or explicitly by damn near everybody in the tent. I keep asking pro zionists and zionist apologists to prove themselves exceptions to this rule and they consistently refuse - thereby implicitly placing themselves in the "pro racism" group, i suppose. >Dishonestly euphemistic and you know it. No, not really. I tend to view the president of a cause to be a bit more representative of it than I do a few crackpots who hold up a flag. I similarly dont view Baruch Goldstein as representative of all zionists. Unlike most other people who conflate antisemitism and antizionism, I dont just have a preferred flavor of racism.
nailer 4y ago
I'm not sure how familiar with the UK you are. The left recently chose as a leader a man who claimed he was friends with Hamas and Hezbollah. The people who claim 'anti-zionism isn't antisemitism' are his voters. Edit reply due to rate limit: Corbyn also laid a wreath for one of the terrorists, presumably also in the pursuit of peace. Oddly Corbyn also advocated for the IRA and claims that was about peace too, but the people that negotiated Good Friday state he didn’t have anything to do with the NI peace process either.
- pydry 4y ago
  It's called diplomacy. He was engaged in peace negotiations when he called those people friends (he has since said that he probably shouldnt have said it). It clearly wasnt racism that motivated him to say "friends" it was obviously a desire for peace. Most of his more intelligent detractors understood the context but were avowedly pro war - for them that actually made it worse. Isaac Herzog's abhorrent views had no such excuse, he doubled down on them and yet British centrists demonstrate pretty much unconditional support for him. A contingent from the UK Labour party even visited him to apologize in person for the other guy's "antisemitism". In the process of apologizing for somebody who wasnt a racist, they were sucking up to somebody who was. They werent looking for peace when they did that though, only approval.
  - nailer 4y ago
    Was rate limited at the time, but edit-replied above - ICYMI: Corbyn also laid a wreath for one of the terrorists, presumably also in the pursuit of peace. Oddly Corbyn also advocated for the IRA and claims that was about peace too, but the people that negotiated Good Friday state he didn’t have anything to do with the NI peace process either. Adding to that: > A contingent from the UK Labour party even visited him to apologize in person for the other guy's "antisemitism". Excellent. That said, it's not just one other guy - Corbyn's not the only person in the far left. > Isaac Herzog's abhorrent views The worst I've seen so far is someone saying Herzog thinks Palestinians fly planes into buildings, which is demonstrably false (in a video he discusses 'terrorists' doing that) and someone else saying he doesn't want his daughter to marry a black man - not wanting your children to marry outside your race is a fairly common view worldwide although rarely said in public in the UK. Oddly Labour is very keen on conservative views when it comes to some races but not others. If there's something big about Herzog we haven't seen in this thread please spill it here.